New Backup Solution

I'm going to be replacing my 72GB (3x36GB) RAID 5 with a 292GB (3x146GB) 
RIAD 5 and will also need to change my backup strategy.  I'm currently using 
a DAT72 tape drive with SBS2003 and I'm slowing excluding more and more from 
the backup so it will fit on the tapes (don't worry... using an external USB 
w/ Robocopy for the rest).

Keeping SBS2008 in mind, I'm contemplating just using external USB drives 
but I've been given a competitive quote on Backup Exec (for SBS) with a DLT 
160/320 tape solution and I'm told that this is far superior to the native 
SBS backup.  Price wise, I could buy a lot of portable external USB drives 
and use the free NT Backup for the price of the Backup Exec/Tape solution.

I know Backup Exec includes an Exchange Agent and an add-on SQL Agent but 
what if I were to setup my future SBS2008 in a Hyper-V 1+1 scenario?  Does 
Backup Exec cover this as well?  What about NT Backup?

My gut is telling me to just go with USB drives as it seems the most popular 
option in the newsgroups...

SBS2003 Standard with SQL 2005 Standard on another Win2k3 server. 

0
Scott
11/27/2009 4:01:55 PM
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Sounds very similar to our old situation - using tape and having to do 
custom backups with NTBackup to make them fit, wondering if you missed 
anything, wondering if you could handle a full disaster recovery...

We switched over to ShadowProtect SBS (SP) last year and haven't looked 
back.  I am able to do backups every 2 hours during the day without issues 
(how often you can backup is based more on the size of your backup drives). 
It integrates fully into VSS so Exchange & SQL are fully backed up using 
MS-methods.  Their hardware independent restore (HIR) really works and their 
backup system is much quicker and efficient than using NTBackup any day.  It 
also works with SBS2008 (although 2008's native backup has gotten good 
reviews but I am unsure that it can handle HIR).

http://www.storagecraft.com/shadow_protect_SBS.php

Best part, it was easy to actually test and document a disaster recovery 
scenario -- I could restore my SBS server OS/exchange/SQL/ISA to completely 
different hardware in an hour (a little longer with all our data) plug in a 
domain laptop and go -- it worked flawlessly (once you update drivers, etc.) 
and has saved me some sleep as our server hardware is a little older than it 
should be ;-)

Some notes on how I use SP:

1) Schedule a NTBackup system state backup once a week when SP is not 
running just in case you need it.
2) To allow exchange logfiles to be properly handled you need to turn on the 
exchange VSS writer.  Note that doing this precludes using SBSBackup but it 
sounds like you weren't using it anyway (workaround: 
http://blog.sbs-rocks.com/2009/06/best-of-both-worlds-shadowprotect-and-sbs-backup/)
3) I find it best to throw in a large un-raided IDE/SATA drive in the server 
and backup to that.  I then use robocopy scripts triggered to run after SP 
finishes to copy the backups to multiple locations (including our external 
USB drive).  You can have SP backup to the external drive directly, I just 
like this better as the backup will still run if someone forgets the 
external drive.

I don't work for them I just really like the program, it has saved my bacon 
a couple times already.  If you email them you can download a fully 
functional trial version.
-- 
Allan Williams




Scott Rymer wrote:
> I'm going to be replacing my 72GB (3x36GB) RAID 5 with a 292GB
> (3x146GB) RIAD 5 and will also need to change my backup strategy. I'm 
> currently using a DAT72 tape drive with SBS2003 and I'm slowing
> excluding more and more from the backup so it will fit on the tapes
> (don't worry... using an external USB w/ Robocopy for the rest).
>
> Keeping SBS2008 in mind, I'm contemplating just using external USB
> drives but I've been given a competitive quote on Backup Exec (for
> SBS) with a DLT 160/320 tape solution and I'm told that this is far
> superior to the native SBS backup.  Price wise, I could buy a lot of
> portable external USB drives and use the free NT Backup for the price
> of the Backup Exec/Tape solution.
> I know Backup Exec includes an Exchange Agent and an add-on SQL Agent
> but what if I were to setup my future SBS2008 in a Hyper-V 1+1
> scenario?  Does Backup Exec cover this as well?  What about NT Backup?
>
> My gut is telling me to just go with USB drives as it seems the most
> popular option in the newsgroups...
>
> SBS2003 Standard with SQL 2005 Standard on another Win2k3 server. 


0
Al
11/27/2009 5:10:37 PM
Allan... thanks so much.  I'm very interested after reading a little on 
their website and seeing that this is a very affordable solution.
Yes, our hardware is getting older as well and I'm starting to feel insecure 
about it but don't really want to replace it since it's been rock solid 
since day one.

So if I'm reading correctly, with SP, if our SBS were to go down hard 
(motherboard failure), I could restore the last SBS backup to a MS Virtual 
Server running elsewhere and keep on chugging along while my "real" SBS is 
repaired, and then restore the virtual SBS back onto the physical server? 
Am I dreaming?

I like the idea of having the local IDE/SATA drive on the server and then 
copying to removable storage for offsite.  So do you still have a rotation 
like tape or does the image based backup preclude needing this type of 
strategy for USB?

Appreciate all your help!

-Scott

"Al Williams" <donotreplydirect@usenewsgroup.com> wrote in message 
news:eEahLS4bKHA.1596@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...
> Sounds very similar to our old situation - using tape and having to do 
> custom backups with NTBackup to make them fit, wondering if you missed 
> anything, wondering if you could handle a full disaster recovery...
>
> We switched over to ShadowProtect SBS (SP) last year and haven't looked 
> back.  I am able to do backups every 2 hours during the day without issues 
> (how often you can backup is based more on the size of your backup 
> drives). It integrates fully into VSS so Exchange & SQL are fully backed 
> up using MS-methods.  Their hardware independent restore (HIR) really 
> works and their backup system is much quicker and efficient than using 
> NTBackup any day.  It also works with SBS2008 (although 2008's native 
> backup has gotten good reviews but I am unsure that it can handle HIR).
>
> http://www.storagecraft.com/shadow_protect_SBS.php
>
> Best part, it was easy to actually test and document a disaster recovery 
> scenario -- I could restore my SBS server OS/exchange/SQL/ISA to 
> completely different hardware in an hour (a little longer with all our 
> data) plug in a domain laptop and go -- it worked flawlessly (once you 
> update drivers, etc.) and has saved me some sleep as our server hardware 
> is a little older than it should be ;-)
>
> Some notes on how I use SP:
>
> 1) Schedule a NTBackup system state backup once a week when SP is not 
> running just in case you need it.
> 2) To allow exchange logfiles to be properly handled you need to turn on 
> the exchange VSS writer.  Note that doing this precludes using SBSBackup 
> but it sounds like you weren't using it anyway (workaround: 
> http://blog.sbs-rocks.com/2009/06/best-of-both-worlds-shadowprotect-and-sbs-backup/)
> 3) I find it best to throw in a large un-raided IDE/SATA drive in the 
> server and backup to that.  I then use robocopy scripts triggered to run 
> after SP finishes to copy the backups to multiple locations (including our 
> external USB drive).  You can have SP backup to the external drive 
> directly, I just like this better as the backup will still run if someone 
> forgets the external drive.
>
> I don't work for them I just really like the program, it has saved my 
> bacon a couple times already.  If you email them you can download a fully 
> functional trial version.
> -- 
> Allan Williams
>
>
>
>
> Scott Rymer wrote:
>> I'm going to be replacing my 72GB (3x36GB) RAID 5 with a 292GB
>> (3x146GB) RIAD 5 and will also need to change my backup strategy. I'm 
>> currently using a DAT72 tape drive with SBS2003 and I'm slowing
>> excluding more and more from the backup so it will fit on the tapes
>> (don't worry... using an external USB w/ Robocopy for the rest).
>>
>> Keeping SBS2008 in mind, I'm contemplating just using external USB
>> drives but I've been given a competitive quote on Backup Exec (for
>> SBS) with a DLT 160/320 tape solution and I'm told that this is far
>> superior to the native SBS backup.  Price wise, I could buy a lot of
>> portable external USB drives and use the free NT Backup for the price
>> of the Backup Exec/Tape solution.
>> I know Backup Exec includes an Exchange Agent and an add-on SQL Agent
>> but what if I were to setup my future SBS2008 in a Hyper-V 1+1
>> scenario?  Does Backup Exec cover this as well?  What about NT Backup?
>>
>> My gut is telling me to just go with USB drives as it seems the most
>> popular option in the newsgroups...
>>
>> SBS2003 Standard with SQL 2005 Standard on another Win2k3 server.
>
> 

0
Scott
11/27/2009 5:48:27 PM
Replies inline:

-Cliff


"Scott Rymer" <tsrymer/at/hotmail/dot/com> wrote in message 
news:A13A34F9-293A-4D8C-B180-6A7720B867AC@microsoft.com...
> I'm going to be replacing my 72GB (3x36GB) RAID 5 with a 292GB (3x146GB) 
> RIAD 5 and will also need to change my backup strategy.  I'm currently 
> using a DAT72 tape drive with SBS2003 and I'm slowing excluding more and 
> more from the backup so it will fit on the tapes (don't worry... using an 
> external USB w/ Robocopy for the rest).

Ugh.  I feel your pain.  Time to step up to something more manageable for 
sure.

>
> Keeping SBS2008 in mind, I'm contemplating just using external USB drives 
> but I've been given a competitive quote on Backup Exec (for SBS) with a 
> DLT 160/320 tape solution and I'm told that this is far superior to the 
> native SBS backup.  Price wise, I could buy a lot of portable external USB 
> drives and use the free NT Backup for the price of the Backup Exec/Tape 
> solution.

Backup Exec is definitely a higher-end product.  No argument.  However 
"superior" is in the eye of the beholder.  A tractor-trailer is a superior 
vehicle in almost all regards to a minivan.  Both are designed to transport 
"stuff" (unlike a sports-car, for example) but obviously the big rig 
outclasses the mini-van.  That doesn't mean that soccer-moms should start 
driving big rigs everywhere.

So, in my opinion, Backup Exec has a place, but for most SBS deployments, 
the SBS backup is actually the better solution.  It is easier to set up, 
better integrated, and has all of the major features most people need.

Ultimately, however, the only real way to make the decision between the two 
is to ask "what does Backup Exec do FOR ME that SBS backup doesn't."  Backup 
to tape? Sure.  But if you are buying new across the board, as it sounds 
like you are, is that a feature you NEED.  Probably not, since you can buy 
external drives.  Don't let a salesperson talk you into a solution just 
because it is "superior."  Ask them WHY and decide if the features fit your 
needs and if the cost is worth it.

> I know Backup Exec includes an Exchange Agent and an add-on SQL Agent but 
> what if I were to setup my future SBS2008 in a Hyper-V 1+1 scenario?  Does 
> Backup Exec cover this as well?  What about NT Backup?

NTBackup is officially gone in '08.  "Windows backup" is not even related, 
code-wise.  Just an FYI.  If someone were skimming, they could give you 
incorrect information since NTBackup is, feature-wise, different than the 
built-in backup on SBS.

But address your question specifically, both products can handle Hyper-V. 
But *how* they handle hyper-v (or even if then need to) depends entirely on 
your backup strategy.  There is a difference between running the backup 
within the guest OS where it behaves (and will restore) just like a 
traditional backup, and running the backup from the host, where a snapshot 
of the entire running OS occurs.

Backup Exec can backup a guest OS from the host but it requires the purchase 
of another agent.  Specifically you'll need a MS Virtual Server agent for 
Backup Exec.  Windows Backup can also backup virtual machines from the 
parent partition as long as you register the Hyper-V VSS Writer.  There is a 
technet article on how to do this and the process is simple, but I won't 
bother posting more about this yet since it really isn't relevant to the 
conversation.  All that is important is that it *can* be done.

One important thing to consider here is that in a 1+1 setup, your SBS server 
is going to be a child OS, so the "Windows Backup" path for backing up the 
hyper-V OS will *not* be set up in SBS.  For the backup to run via hyper-v, 
you need to do so in the parent OS, so you'd use the standalone Windows 
Backup program on the parent OS, which is not SBS integrated.  But neither 
is Backup Exec, so ultimately it is a wash.

Ultimately you have to decide why you'd want to back up a guest OS from the 
host. I don't want to imply that you can't or shouldn't do this; there are 
benefits to backing up guest OS's from the host.  But neither do I want to 
imply that it is necessary. Backups can certainly still be run in the guest 
OS without ever being aware that they are running in a hyper-v server since 
hyper-v drivers appear real to the guest OS.  Backup products can be 
blissfully unaware.

There are trade-offs with each approach, and you could, of course, do guest 
AND host backups to get the best of both worlds. There is still a cost 
though. this time in storage space. A *lot* of space.  You are essentially 
getting two backups of every server every time.  So there is a lot of 
thought that must go into a DR plan, regardless of product, when you add 
hyper-v.  Most of those decisions need to be driven by a needs assessment. 
There is no shortcut.

....which brings us full circle.  Yes, you *can* backup hyper-v guests with 
either product, but *how* you back them up is the question.

> My gut is telling me to just go with USB drives as it seems the most 
> popular option in the newsgroups...

Don't go with your gut any more than you should go with a salesman's 
recommendation blindly.  The only way to make this decision is to sit down, 
make a list of what you need, and then choose the product that fits those 
needs.  It takes time.  It takes planning.  Google disaster recovery 
whitepapers.  Read.  Set up a test machine to use the products you are 
considering.  Get a feel for their UIs, then decide which product has the 
best cost/benefit ratio for your needs. 

0
Cliff
11/27/2009 6:22:17 PM
Cliff... thanks for the very thorough response.  As I was reading your 
reply, I realised that the DLT tape solution woudln't fit my needs even now 
as I would likely be in the same position of running out of backup space as 
our data grows.  This server also has an 18GB RAID 1 OS drive that needs 
backing up.  Also, when I do migrate to SBS2008 and if I wanted to run the 
premium SQL server in another Hyper-V child, I'd have an even harder time 
backup that server up.  So, since I'm buying all new anyway, tape certainly 
doesn't suit my needs.

So I'm going to look into both ShadowProtect (thanks Allan) and the 
integrated SBS backup.  Right now, with my ageing server, the ShadowProtect 
route certainly seems to fit the bill...

One more question does come to mind... if I were to backup via the host in a 
Hyper-V scenario, I would assume this wouldn't be Exchange or SQL aware... 
so how does one purge logs, etc. that would naturally occur in the 
integrated SBS backup?

Gotta go and read now... thanks a ton!


"Cliff Galiher" <cgaliher@gmail.com> wrote in message 
news:e7rnZ64bKHA.2160@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...
> Replies inline:
>
> -Cliff
>
>
> "Scott Rymer" <tsrymer/at/hotmail/dot/com> wrote in message 
> news:A13A34F9-293A-4D8C-B180-6A7720B867AC@microsoft.com...
>> I'm going to be replacing my 72GB (3x36GB) RAID 5 with a 292GB (3x146GB) 
>> RIAD 5 and will also need to change my backup strategy.  I'm currently 
>> using a DAT72 tape drive with SBS2003 and I'm slowing excluding more and 
>> more from the backup so it will fit on the tapes (don't worry... using an 
>> external USB w/ Robocopy for the rest).
>
> Ugh.  I feel your pain.  Time to step up to something more manageable for 
> sure.
>
>>
>> Keeping SBS2008 in mind, I'm contemplating just using external USB drives 
>> but I've been given a competitive quote on Backup Exec (for SBS) with a 
>> DLT 160/320 tape solution and I'm told that this is far superior to the 
>> native SBS backup.  Price wise, I could buy a lot of portable external 
>> USB drives and use the free NT Backup for the price of the Backup 
>> Exec/Tape solution.
>
> Backup Exec is definitely a higher-end product.  No argument.  However 
> "superior" is in the eye of the beholder.  A tractor-trailer is a superior 
> vehicle in almost all regards to a minivan.  Both are designed to 
> transport "stuff" (unlike a sports-car, for example) but obviously the big 
> rig outclasses the mini-van.  That doesn't mean that soccer-moms should 
> start driving big rigs everywhere.
>
> So, in my opinion, Backup Exec has a place, but for most SBS deployments, 
> the SBS backup is actually the better solution.  It is easier to set up, 
> better integrated, and has all of the major features most people need.
>
> Ultimately, however, the only real way to make the decision between the 
> two is to ask "what does Backup Exec do FOR ME that SBS backup doesn't." 
> Backup to tape? Sure.  But if you are buying new across the board, as it 
> sounds like you are, is that a feature you NEED.  Probably not, since you 
> can buy external drives.  Don't let a salesperson talk you into a solution 
> just because it is "superior."  Ask them WHY and decide if the features 
> fit your needs and if the cost is worth it.
>
>> I know Backup Exec includes an Exchange Agent and an add-on SQL Agent but 
>> what if I were to setup my future SBS2008 in a Hyper-V 1+1 scenario? 
>> Does Backup Exec cover this as well?  What about NT Backup?
>
> NTBackup is officially gone in '08.  "Windows backup" is not even related, 
> code-wise.  Just an FYI.  If someone were skimming, they could give you 
> incorrect information since NTBackup is, feature-wise, different than the 
> built-in backup on SBS.
>
> But address your question specifically, both products can handle Hyper-V. 
> But *how* they handle hyper-v (or even if then need to) depends entirely 
> on your backup strategy.  There is a difference between running the backup 
> within the guest OS where it behaves (and will restore) just like a 
> traditional backup, and running the backup from the host, where a snapshot 
> of the entire running OS occurs.
>
> Backup Exec can backup a guest OS from the host but it requires the 
> purchase of another agent.  Specifically you'll need a MS Virtual Server 
> agent for Backup Exec.  Windows Backup can also backup virtual machines 
> from the parent partition as long as you register the Hyper-V VSS Writer. 
> There is a technet article on how to do this and the process is simple, 
> but I won't bother posting more about this yet since it really isn't 
> relevant to the conversation.  All that is important is that it *can* be 
> done.
>
> One important thing to consider here is that in a 1+1 setup, your SBS 
> server is going to be a child OS, so the "Windows Backup" path for backing 
> up the hyper-V OS will *not* be set up in SBS.  For the backup to run via 
> hyper-v, you need to do so in the parent OS, so you'd use the standalone 
> Windows Backup program on the parent OS, which is not SBS integrated.  But 
> neither is Backup Exec, so ultimately it is a wash.
>
> Ultimately you have to decide why you'd want to back up a guest OS from 
> the host. I don't want to imply that you can't or shouldn't do this; there 
> are benefits to backing up guest OS's from the host.  But neither do I 
> want to imply that it is necessary. Backups can certainly still be run in 
> the guest OS without ever being aware that they are running in a hyper-v 
> server since hyper-v drivers appear real to the guest OS.  Backup products 
> can be blissfully unaware.
>
> There are trade-offs with each approach, and you could, of course, do 
> guest AND host backups to get the best of both worlds. There is still a 
> cost though. this time in storage space. A *lot* of space.  You are 
> essentially getting two backups of every server every time.  So there is a 
> lot of thought that must go into a DR plan, regardless of product, when 
> you add hyper-v.  Most of those decisions need to be driven by a needs 
> assessment. There is no shortcut.
>
> ...which brings us full circle.  Yes, you *can* backup hyper-v guests with 
> either product, but *how* you back them up is the question.
>
>> My gut is telling me to just go with USB drives as it seems the most 
>> popular option in the newsgroups...
>
> Don't go with your gut any more than you should go with a salesman's 
> recommendation blindly.  The only way to make this decision is to sit 
> down, make a list of what you need, and then choose the product that fits 
> those needs.  It takes time.  It takes planning.  Google disaster recovery 
> whitepapers.  Read.  Set up a test machine to use the products you are 
> considering.  Get a feel for their UIs, then decide which product has the 
> best cost/benefit ratio for your needs. 

0
Scott
11/27/2009 6:59:57 PM
To answer your final question, I can only answer it for the Windows Backup. 
I have not looked into the details of how the MS Virtual Server agent for 
Backup Exec works, so there may be differences.

The short answer is that the host OS for a Windows Backup does not need to 
specifically be Exchange or SQL aware since that isn't how host OS backups 
work or how hey are intended to be restored.  One of the things the host OS 
does during the backup, however, is calls the various VSS writers that are 
registered.  To backup up VMs, the hyper-v VSS writer must be registered as 
I previously mentioned.

The Hyper-V VSS writer exists because of the "special" things it does above 
and beyond the file-level snapshots that the standard VSS writer does.  One 
of those special things is that, as long as the integration components are 
installed on the guest OS, is that it passes on the VSS snapshot requests to 
any registered VSS writers in the guest OS.  This includes any SQL and 
Exchange VSS writers that are present, as well as any other custom 
application VSS writers that may be installed.

Essentially, although the host OS is not "explicitly" aware of Exchange or 
SQL, as long as the guest OS is app aware and properly configured to talk to 
the host, the end result is the same.  It is a cooperative effort between 
the hyper-V VSS writer and the guest OS VSS writers where the host OS will 
trust the guest OS to do what needs to be done.  In turn, the guest OS will 
ensure that its applications are in a consistent state, so Exchange and SQL 
are ready to roll if the guest OS is restored.  No hanging transactions or 
logs.

This also should answer your question about log pruning. This isn't a result 
of the SBS backup specifically, but is done because the application is aware 
if it has been backed up.  And the application is made aware of its state of 
backup because of its VSS writer.  The architecture I outlined above shows 
that the guest OS VSS writers are called so the apps are aware they've been 
backed up and, in turn, the logs will be handled in the same way they'd be 
handled if the backup was run natively in the guest OS; however you've 
configured that to be.

Hope that helps,

-Cliff


"Scott Rymer" <tsrymer/at/hotmail/dot/com> wrote in message 
news:u2WBSP5bKHA.4708@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...
> Cliff... thanks for the very thorough response.  As I was reading your 
> reply, I realised that the DLT tape solution woudln't fit my needs even 
> now as I would likely be in the same position of running out of backup 
> space as our data grows.  This server also has an 18GB RAID 1 OS drive 
> that needs backing up.  Also, when I do migrate to SBS2008 and if I wanted 
> to run the premium SQL server in another Hyper-V child, I'd have an even 
> harder time backup that server up.  So, since I'm buying all new anyway, 
> tape certainly doesn't suit my needs.
>
> So I'm going to look into both ShadowProtect (thanks Allan) and the 
> integrated SBS backup.  Right now, with my ageing server, the 
> ShadowProtect route certainly seems to fit the bill...
>
> One more question does come to mind... if I were to backup via the host in 
> a Hyper-V scenario, I would assume this wouldn't be Exchange or SQL 
> aware... so how does one purge logs, etc. that would naturally occur in 
> the integrated SBS backup?
>
> Gotta go and read now... thanks a ton!
>
>
> "Cliff Galiher" <cgaliher@gmail.com> wrote in message 
> news:e7rnZ64bKHA.2160@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...
>> Replies inline:
>>
>> -Cliff
>>
>>
>> "Scott Rymer" <tsrymer/at/hotmail/dot/com> wrote in message 
>> news:A13A34F9-293A-4D8C-B180-6A7720B867AC@microsoft.com...
>>> I'm going to be replacing my 72GB (3x36GB) RAID 5 with a 292GB (3x146GB) 
>>> RIAD 5 and will also need to change my backup strategy.  I'm currently 
>>> using a DAT72 tape drive with SBS2003 and I'm slowing excluding more and 
>>> more from the backup so it will fit on the tapes (don't worry... using 
>>> an external USB w/ Robocopy for the rest).
>>
>> Ugh.  I feel your pain.  Time to step up to something more manageable for 
>> sure.
>>
>>>
>>> Keeping SBS2008 in mind, I'm contemplating just using external USB 
>>> drives but I've been given a competitive quote on Backup Exec (for SBS) 
>>> with a DLT 160/320 tape solution and I'm told that this is far superior 
>>> to the native SBS backup.  Price wise, I could buy a lot of portable 
>>> external USB drives and use the free NT Backup for the price of the 
>>> Backup Exec/Tape solution.
>>
>> Backup Exec is definitely a higher-end product.  No argument.  However 
>> "superior" is in the eye of the beholder.  A tractor-trailer is a 
>> superior vehicle in almost all regards to a minivan.  Both are designed 
>> to transport "stuff" (unlike a sports-car, for example) but obviously the 
>> big rig outclasses the mini-van.  That doesn't mean that soccer-moms 
>> should start driving big rigs everywhere.
>>
>> So, in my opinion, Backup Exec has a place, but for most SBS deployments, 
>> the SBS backup is actually the better solution.  It is easier to set up, 
>> better integrated, and has all of the major features most people need.
>>
>> Ultimately, however, the only real way to make the decision between the 
>> two is to ask "what does Backup Exec do FOR ME that SBS backup doesn't." 
>> Backup to tape? Sure.  But if you are buying new across the board, as it 
>> sounds like you are, is that a feature you NEED.  Probably not, since you 
>> can buy external drives.  Don't let a salesperson talk you into a 
>> solution just because it is "superior."  Ask them WHY and decide if the 
>> features fit your needs and if the cost is worth it.
>>
>>> I know Backup Exec includes an Exchange Agent and an add-on SQL Agent 
>>> but what if I were to setup my future SBS2008 in a Hyper-V 1+1 scenario? 
>>> Does Backup Exec cover this as well?  What about NT Backup?
>>
>> NTBackup is officially gone in '08.  "Windows backup" is not even 
>> related, code-wise.  Just an FYI.  If someone were skimming, they could 
>> give you incorrect information since NTBackup is, feature-wise, different 
>> than the built-in backup on SBS.
>>
>> But address your question specifically, both products can handle Hyper-V. 
>> But *how* they handle hyper-v (or even if then need to) depends entirely 
>> on your backup strategy.  There is a difference between running the 
>> backup within the guest OS where it behaves (and will restore) just like 
>> a traditional backup, and running the backup from the host, where a 
>> snapshot of the entire running OS occurs.
>>
>> Backup Exec can backup a guest OS from the host but it requires the 
>> purchase of another agent.  Specifically you'll need a MS Virtual Server 
>> agent for Backup Exec.  Windows Backup can also backup virtual machines 
>> from the parent partition as long as you register the Hyper-V VSS Writer. 
>> There is a technet article on how to do this and the process is simple, 
>> but I won't bother posting more about this yet since it really isn't 
>> relevant to the conversation.  All that is important is that it *can* be 
>> done.
>>
>> One important thing to consider here is that in a 1+1 setup, your SBS 
>> server is going to be a child OS, so the "Windows Backup" path for 
>> backing up the hyper-V OS will *not* be set up in SBS.  For the backup to 
>> run via hyper-v, you need to do so in the parent OS, so you'd use the 
>> standalone Windows Backup program on the parent OS, which is not SBS 
>> integrated.  But neither is Backup Exec, so ultimately it is a wash.
>>
>> Ultimately you have to decide why you'd want to back up a guest OS from 
>> the host. I don't want to imply that you can't or shouldn't do this; 
>> there are benefits to backing up guest OS's from the host.  But neither 
>> do I want to imply that it is necessary. Backups can certainly still be 
>> run in the guest OS without ever being aware that they are running in a 
>> hyper-v server since hyper-v drivers appear real to the guest OS.  Backup 
>> products can be blissfully unaware.
>>
>> There are trade-offs with each approach, and you could, of course, do 
>> guest AND host backups to get the best of both worlds. There is still a 
>> cost though. this time in storage space. A *lot* of space.  You are 
>> essentially getting two backups of every server every time.  So there is 
>> a lot of thought that must go into a DR plan, regardless of product, when 
>> you add hyper-v.  Most of those decisions need to be driven by a needs 
>> assessment. There is no shortcut.
>>
>> ...which brings us full circle.  Yes, you *can* backup hyper-v guests 
>> with either product, but *how* you back them up is the question.
>>
>>> My gut is telling me to just go with USB drives as it seems the most 
>>> popular option in the newsgroups...
>>
>> Don't go with your gut any more than you should go with a salesman's 
>> recommendation blindly.  The only way to make this decision is to sit 
>> down, make a list of what you need, and then choose the product that fits 
>> those needs.  It takes time.  It takes planning.  Google disaster 
>> recovery whitepapers.  Read.  Set up a test machine to use the products 
>> you are considering.  Get a feel for their UIs, then decide which product 
>> has the best cost/benefit ratio for your needs.
> 
0
Cliff
11/27/2009 7:40:53 PM
It certainly does help...  Thanks again!

"Cliff Galiher" <cgaliher@gmail.com> wrote in message 
news:Ov5UUm5bKHA.1596@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...
> To answer your final question, I can only answer it for the Windows 
> Backup. I have not looked into the details of how the MS Virtual Server 
> agent for Backup Exec works, so there may be differences.
>
> The short answer is that the host OS for a Windows Backup does not need to 
> specifically be Exchange or SQL aware since that isn't how host OS backups 
> work or how hey are intended to be restored.  One of the things the host 
> OS does during the backup, however, is calls the various VSS writers that 
> are registered.  To backup up VMs, the hyper-v VSS writer must be 
> registered as I previously mentioned.
>
> The Hyper-V VSS writer exists because of the "special" things it does 
> above and beyond the file-level snapshots that the standard VSS writer 
> does.  One of those special things is that, as long as the integration 
> components are installed on the guest OS, is that it passes on the VSS 
> snapshot requests to any registered VSS writers in the guest OS.  This 
> includes any SQL and Exchange VSS writers that are present, as well as any 
> other custom application VSS writers that may be installed.
>
> Essentially, although the host OS is not "explicitly" aware of Exchange or 
> SQL, as long as the guest OS is app aware and properly configured to talk 
> to the host, the end result is the same.  It is a cooperative effort 
> between the hyper-V VSS writer and the guest OS VSS writers where the host 
> OS will trust the guest OS to do what needs to be done.  In turn, the 
> guest OS will ensure that its applications are in a consistent state, so 
> Exchange and SQL are ready to roll if the guest OS is restored.  No 
> hanging transactions or logs.
>
> This also should answer your question about log pruning. This isn't a 
> result of the SBS backup specifically, but is done because the application 
> is aware if it has been backed up.  And the application is made aware of 
> its state of backup because of its VSS writer.  The architecture I 
> outlined above shows that the guest OS VSS writers are called so the apps 
> are aware they've been backed up and, in turn, the logs will be handled in 
> the same way they'd be handled if the backup was run natively in the guest 
> OS; however you've configured that to be.
>
> Hope that helps,
>
> -Cliff
>
>
> "Scott Rymer" <tsrymer/at/hotmail/dot/com> wrote in message 
> news:u2WBSP5bKHA.4708@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...
>> Cliff... thanks for the very thorough response.  As I was reading your 
>> reply, I realised that the DLT tape solution woudln't fit my needs even 
>> now as I would likely be in the same position of running out of backup 
>> space as our data grows.  This server also has an 18GB RAID 1 OS drive 
>> that needs backing up.  Also, when I do migrate to SBS2008 and if I 
>> wanted to run the premium SQL server in another Hyper-V child, I'd have 
>> an even harder time backup that server up.  So, since I'm buying all new 
>> anyway, tape certainly doesn't suit my needs.
>>
>> So I'm going to look into both ShadowProtect (thanks Allan) and the 
>> integrated SBS backup.  Right now, with my ageing server, the 
>> ShadowProtect route certainly seems to fit the bill...
>>
>> One more question does come to mind... if I were to backup via the host 
>> in a Hyper-V scenario, I would assume this wouldn't be Exchange or SQL 
>> aware... so how does one purge logs, etc. that would naturally occur in 
>> the integrated SBS backup?
>>
>> Gotta go and read now... thanks a ton!
>>
>>
>> "Cliff Galiher" <cgaliher@gmail.com> wrote in message 
>> news:e7rnZ64bKHA.2160@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...
>>> Replies inline:
>>>
>>> -Cliff
>>>
>>>
>>> "Scott Rymer" <tsrymer/at/hotmail/dot/com> wrote in message 
>>> news:A13A34F9-293A-4D8C-B180-6A7720B867AC@microsoft.com...
>>>> I'm going to be replacing my 72GB (3x36GB) RAID 5 with a 292GB 
>>>> (3x146GB) RIAD 5 and will also need to change my backup strategy.  I'm 
>>>> currently using a DAT72 tape drive with SBS2003 and I'm slowing 
>>>> excluding more and more from the backup so it will fit on the tapes 
>>>> (don't worry... using an external USB w/ Robocopy for the rest).
>>>
>>> Ugh.  I feel your pain.  Time to step up to something more manageable 
>>> for sure.
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Keeping SBS2008 in mind, I'm contemplating just using external USB 
>>>> drives but I've been given a competitive quote on Backup Exec (for SBS) 
>>>> with a DLT 160/320 tape solution and I'm told that this is far superior 
>>>> to the native SBS backup.  Price wise, I could buy a lot of portable 
>>>> external USB drives and use the free NT Backup for the price of the 
>>>> Backup Exec/Tape solution.
>>>
>>> Backup Exec is definitely a higher-end product.  No argument.  However 
>>> "superior" is in the eye of the beholder.  A tractor-trailer is a 
>>> superior vehicle in almost all regards to a minivan.  Both are designed 
>>> to transport "stuff" (unlike a sports-car, for example) but obviously 
>>> the big rig outclasses the mini-van.  That doesn't mean that soccer-moms 
>>> should start driving big rigs everywhere.
>>>
>>> So, in my opinion, Backup Exec has a place, but for most SBS 
>>> deployments, the SBS backup is actually the better solution.  It is 
>>> easier to set up, better integrated, and has all of the major features 
>>> most people need.
>>>
>>> Ultimately, however, the only real way to make the decision between the 
>>> two is to ask "what does Backup Exec do FOR ME that SBS backup doesn't." 
>>> Backup to tape? Sure.  But if you are buying new across the board, as it 
>>> sounds like you are, is that a feature you NEED.  Probably not, since 
>>> you can buy external drives.  Don't let a salesperson talk you into a 
>>> solution just because it is "superior."  Ask them WHY and decide if the 
>>> features fit your needs and if the cost is worth it.
>>>
>>>> I know Backup Exec includes an Exchange Agent and an add-on SQL Agent 
>>>> but what if I were to setup my future SBS2008 in a Hyper-V 1+1 
>>>> scenario? Does Backup Exec cover this as well?  What about NT Backup?
>>>
>>> NTBackup is officially gone in '08.  "Windows backup" is not even 
>>> related, code-wise.  Just an FYI.  If someone were skimming, they could 
>>> give you incorrect information since NTBackup is, feature-wise, 
>>> different than the built-in backup on SBS.
>>>
>>> But address your question specifically, both products can handle 
>>> Hyper-V. But *how* they handle hyper-v (or even if then need to) depends 
>>> entirely on your backup strategy.  There is a difference between running 
>>> the backup within the guest OS where it behaves (and will restore) just 
>>> like a traditional backup, and running the backup from the host, where a 
>>> snapshot of the entire running OS occurs.
>>>
>>> Backup Exec can backup a guest OS from the host but it requires the 
>>> purchase of another agent.  Specifically you'll need a MS Virtual Server 
>>> agent for Backup Exec.  Windows Backup can also backup virtual machines 
>>> from the parent partition as long as you register the Hyper-V VSS 
>>> Writer. There is a technet article on how to do this and the process is 
>>> simple, but I won't bother posting more about this yet since it really 
>>> isn't relevant to the conversation.  All that is important is that it 
>>> *can* be done.
>>>
>>> One important thing to consider here is that in a 1+1 setup, your SBS 
>>> server is going to be a child OS, so the "Windows Backup" path for 
>>> backing up the hyper-V OS will *not* be set up in SBS.  For the backup 
>>> to run via hyper-v, you need to do so in the parent OS, so you'd use the 
>>> standalone Windows Backup program on the parent OS, which is not SBS 
>>> integrated.  But neither is Backup Exec, so ultimately it is a wash.
>>>
>>> Ultimately you have to decide why you'd want to back up a guest OS from 
>>> the host. I don't want to imply that you can't or shouldn't do this; 
>>> there are benefits to backing up guest OS's from the host.  But neither 
>>> do I want to imply that it is necessary. Backups can certainly still be 
>>> run in the guest OS without ever being aware that they are running in a 
>>> hyper-v server since hyper-v drivers appear real to the guest OS. 
>>> Backup products can be blissfully unaware.
>>>
>>> There are trade-offs with each approach, and you could, of course, do 
>>> guest AND host backups to get the best of both worlds. There is still a 
>>> cost though. this time in storage space. A *lot* of space.  You are 
>>> essentially getting two backups of every server every time.  So there is 
>>> a lot of thought that must go into a DR plan, regardless of product, 
>>> when you add hyper-v.  Most of those decisions need to be driven by a 
>>> needs assessment. There is no shortcut.
>>>
>>> ...which brings us full circle.  Yes, you *can* backup hyper-v guests 
>>> with either product, but *how* you back them up is the question.
>>>
>>>> My gut is telling me to just go with USB drives as it seems the most 
>>>> popular option in the newsgroups...
>>>
>>> Don't go with your gut any more than you should go with a salesman's 
>>> recommendation blindly.  The only way to make this decision is to sit 
>>> down, make a list of what you need, and then choose the product that 
>>> fits those needs.  It takes time.  It takes planning.  Google disaster 
>>> recovery whitepapers.  Read.  Set up a test machine to use the products 
>>> you are considering.  Get a feel for their UIs, then decide which 
>>> product has the best cost/benefit ratio for your needs.
>> 

0
Scott
11/27/2009 7:54:17 PM
In article <A13A34F9-293A-4D8C-B180-6A7720B867AC@microsoft.com>, "Scott 
Rymer" says...
> 
> I'm going to be replacing my 72GB (3x36GB) RAID 5 with a 292GB (3x146GB) 
> RIAD 5 and will also need to change my backup strategy.  I'm currently using 
> a DAT72 tape drive with SBS2003 and I'm slowing excluding more and more from 
> the backup so it will fit on the tapes (don't worry... using an external USB 
> w/ Robocopy for the rest).
> 
> Keeping SBS2008 in mind, I'm contemplating just using external USB drives 
> but I've been given a competitive quote on Backup Exec (for SBS) with a DLT 
> 160/320 tape solution and I'm told that this is far superior to the native 
> SBS backup.  Price wise, I could buy a lot of portable external USB drives 
> and use the free NT Backup for the price of the Backup Exec/Tape solution.
> 
> I know Backup Exec includes an Exchange Agent and an add-on SQL Agent but 
> what if I were to setup my future SBS2008 in a Hyper-V 1+1 scenario?  Does 
> Backup Exec cover this as well?  What about NT Backup?
> 
> My gut is telling me to just go with USB drives as it seems the most popular 
> option in the newsgroups...
> 
> SBS2003 Standard with SQL 2005 Standard on another Win2k3 server. 

With USB drives you have SBS backup built-in ability to recover the 
server from scratch with just the Install DVD and your RAID controller 
drivers in a thumb drive if needed - it's that simple. You can even 
select a point in time to do the bare metal restore from - I would not 
purchase a third party backup solution unless you really want to use 
tape.

Now, my preference is TAPE - I have used it for decades and find it to 
be very reliable, more reliable than USB drives, but, like all backup 
solutions it does require monitoring (which most people fail to do). 
Tapes don't last for an infinite number of writes, but, they are always 
cheaper than quality USB drives, but significantly smaller.

In the case of SOX compliance, the cost of 46 USB drives exceeds the 
cost of 46 Tapes and the Tape drive.

If you're able to use just a couple USB drives then USB would be the 
cheaper way to go, but I strongly caution you to purchase quality USB 
external drives - ones with more than 3 year warranty.

-- 
You can't trust your best friends, your five senses, only the little 
voice inside you that most civilians don't even hear -- Listen to that.  
Trust yourself.
spam999free@rrohio.com (remove 999 for proper email address)
0
Leythos
11/27/2009 7:56:37 PM
Thanks for those details--I've been interested in that question for some 
time, and this is a very clear explanation.

"Cliff Galiher" <cgaliher@gmail.com> wrote in message 
news:Ov5UUm5bKHA.1596@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...
> To answer your final question, I can only answer it for the Windows 
> Backup. I have not looked into the details of how the MS Virtual Server 
> agent for Backup Exec works, so there may be differences.
>
> The short answer is that the host OS for a Windows Backup does not need to 
> specifically be Exchange or SQL aware since that isn't how host OS backups 
> work or how hey are intended to be restored.  One of the things the host 
> OS does during the backup, however, is calls the various VSS writers that 
> are registered.  To backup up VMs, the hyper-v VSS writer must be 
> registered as I previously mentioned.
>
> The Hyper-V VSS writer exists because of the "special" things it does 
> above and beyond the file-level snapshots that the standard VSS writer 
> does.  One of those special things is that, as long as the integration 
> components are installed on the guest OS, is that it passes on the VSS 
> snapshot requests to any registered VSS writers in the guest OS.  This 
> includes any SQL and Exchange VSS writers that are present, as well as any 
> other custom application VSS writers that may be installed.
 

0
Bill
11/28/2009 9:29:44 PM
On Nov 28, 4:29=A0pm, "Bill Sanderson"
<bill_sander...@msn.com.plugh.org> wrote:
> Thanks for those details--I've been interested in that question for some
> time, and this is a very clear explanation.
>
> "Cliff Galiher" <cgali...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:Ov5UUm5bKHA.1596@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...
>
> > To answer your final question, I can only answer it for the Windows
> > Backup. I have not looked into the details of how the MS Virtual Server
> > agent for Backup Exec works, so there may be differences.
>
> > The short answer is that the host OS for a Windows Backup does not need=
 to
> > specifically be Exchange or SQL aware since that isn't how host OS back=
ups
> > work or how hey are intended to be restored. =A0One of the things the h=
ost
> > OS does during the backup, however, is calls the various VSS writers th=
at
> > are registered. =A0To backup up VMs, the hyper-v VSS writer must be
> > registered as I previously mentioned.
>
> > The Hyper-V VSS writer exists because of the "special" things it does
> > above and beyond the file-level snapshots that the standard VSS writer
> > does. =A0One of those special things is that, as long as the integratio=
n
> > components are installed on the guest OS, is that it passes on the VSS
> > snapshot requests to any registered VSS writers in the guest OS. =A0Thi=
s
> > includes any SQL and Exchange VSS writers that are present, as well as =
any
> > other custom application VSS writers that may be installed.

I have had real live experience with Shadow Protect and won't go back.
I did a live full restore of a compromised SBS 2003R2 after it was
hacked (MS Security suggested it was via sql injection through B2B Web
hosted outside) The box was badly trashed and after an over an hour on
the phone with MS security and support I decided to go ahead. I pulled
one of the two OS mirror drives out, formatted the other did the
showprotect restore in less than an hour and it was back up running on
one drive. I ordered a replacement and shipped the "evidence" to MS.
Got the new drive the next AM stuck it in rebuilt the RAID.
0
MM
11/29/2009 12:52:13 AM
"Cliff Galiher" <cgaliher@gmail.com> wrote in message 
news:e7rnZ64bKHA.2160@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...
> Replies inline:
>
> Ultimately you have to decide why you'd want to back up a guest OS from 
> the host. I don't want to imply that you can't or shouldn't do this; there 
> are benefits to backing up guest OS's from the host.  But neither do I 
> want to imply that it is necessary. Backups can certainly still be run in 
> the guest OS without ever being aware that they are running in a hyper-v 
> server since hyper-v drivers appear real to the guest OS.  Backup products 
> can be blissfully unaware.

If you back up from the host won't the guest think, after a restore and 
restart, that it just had its plug pulled?


--  


0
Tom
11/29/2009 5:51:37 AM
The VSS writer is able to account for this.  It does so by forcing a flush 
of data to disk so the server is in a consistent state upon restore and, as 
such, when the server is started back up, it is aware of this fact (a 
feature of VSS.)

If a comparison must be drawn to a machine in a "shut down" state, it'd be 
like pressing (not holding) the power button on a machine.  This forces an 
immediate shutdown process, flushing all data to disk, but does not hard-cut 
the power, nor is a reason for the shutdown given or requires as is the case 
with a software initiated shutdown.

It certainly is a far cry from pulling the plug on a machine, which 
invariably leaves some trace evidence that something went wrong, even if the 
data is still consistent.  Exchange, for example, notes when it closes or 
flushes a log file, as does AD.  So upon restart of a machine that was 
improperly shut down, exchange would notice that the last log file was never 
closed and will initiate some extended checks.  Similarly, if the OS notices 
problems, that's when you see "rebuilding indices" or even NTFS level 
checks.

VSS, on the other hand, flushes the data to disk, marks various log files 
and OS components as consistent, depending on the needs of that component 
(Which is why different VSS writers are required for different 
applications), and then lets the backup software work off of the 
now-consistent snapshot while the OS/exchange/SQL moves along doing other 
things.  Upon restore and start-up, the NTFS check is valid because the data 
was marked appropriately, exchange sees the marker that the log file was 
closed for the snapshot, and SQL Server passes its various checksum 
operations.  Thus these apps proceed without the tedium of the extra 
integrity checks that a hard shutdown would incur.

Hope that makes sense.

-Cliff


"Tom Del Rosso" <td_03@att.net.invalid> wrote in message 
news:uDg$VjLcKHA.1648@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...
> "Cliff Galiher" <cgaliher@gmail.com> wrote in message 
> news:e7rnZ64bKHA.2160@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...
>> Replies inline:
>>
>> Ultimately you have to decide why you'd want to back up a guest OS from 
>> the host. I don't want to imply that you can't or shouldn't do this; 
>> there are benefits to backing up guest OS's from the host.  But neither 
>> do I want to imply that it is necessary. Backups can certainly still be 
>> run in the guest OS without ever being aware that they are running in a 
>> hyper-v server since hyper-v drivers appear real to the guest OS.  Backup 
>> products can be blissfully unaware.
>
> If you back up from the host won't the guest think, after a restore and 
> restart, that it just had its plug pulled?
>
>
> -- 
> 
0
Cliff
11/29/2009 11:24:32 AM
I've never restored a ShadowProtect backup to a virtual machine myself, but 
I've seen it demonstrated - the speaker restored a backup of his SBS to a VM 
on his laptop and booted it up to show how easily it worked.  Works great, 
and you can then back up the VM and restore it back to the SBS as you 
describe.  (Not to mention that I'm pretty sure you can boot an SP backup in 
VMWare without restoring - check their site for that).

I saw the coolest thing for SP backups at SMB Nation - a 2-bay High Rely 
where one drive automatically mirrors to the other.  So you attach this to 
your server with USB or eSATA, and it shows as a single drive.  As you back 
up to that drive, the device mirrors one drive to the other, which can be 
rotated for offsite.  This way, you're not removing or replacing the drive 
your server sees, which avoids "safely remote" and other errors of that 
kind.  And, they have fans and temperature monitoring, so you're likely to 
get better drive life and reliability - I've had a High Rely enclosure going 
on two years, and while I've had one power supply fail (external) and lost 
one to a power incident (my fault), the drives and enclosures have been 
bulletproof.  And their support is excellent. 
http://high-rely.com/HR3/includes/TandemDXR/TandemDXR.php


"Scott Rymer" <tsrymer/at/hotmail/dot/com> wrote in message 
news:uboYVn4bKHA.5576@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...
> Allan... thanks so much.  I'm very interested after reading a little on 
> their website and seeing that this is a very affordable solution.
> Yes, our hardware is getting older as well and I'm starting to feel 
> insecure about it but don't really want to replace it since it's been rock 
> solid since day one.
>
> So if I'm reading correctly, with SP, if our SBS were to go down hard 
> (motherboard failure), I could restore the last SBS backup to a MS Virtual 
> Server running elsewhere and keep on chugging along while my "real" SBS is 
> repaired, and then restore the virtual SBS back onto the physical server? 
> Am I dreaming?
>
> I like the idea of having the local IDE/SATA drive on the server and then 
> copying to removable storage for offsite.  So do you still have a rotation 
> like tape or does the image based backup preclude needing this type of 
> strategy for USB?
>
> Appreciate all your help!
>
> -Scott
>
> "Al Williams" <donotreplydirect@usenewsgroup.com> wrote in message 
> news:eEahLS4bKHA.1596@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...
>> Sounds very similar to our old situation - using tape and having to do 
>> custom backups with NTBackup to make them fit, wondering if you missed 
>> anything, wondering if you could handle a full disaster recovery...
>>
>> We switched over to ShadowProtect SBS (SP) last year and haven't looked 
>> back.  I am able to do backups every 2 hours during the day without 
>> issues (how often you can backup is based more on the size of your backup 
>> drives). It integrates fully into VSS so Exchange & SQL are fully backed 
>> up using MS-methods.  Their hardware independent restore (HIR) really 
>> works and their backup system is much quicker and efficient than using 
>> NTBackup any day.  It also works with SBS2008 (although 2008's native 
>> backup has gotten good reviews but I am unsure that it can handle HIR).
>>
>> http://www.storagecraft.com/shadow_protect_SBS.php
>>
>> Best part, it was easy to actually test and document a disaster recovery 
>> scenario -- I could restore my SBS server OS/exchange/SQL/ISA to 
>> completely different hardware in an hour (a little longer with all our 
>> data) plug in a domain laptop and go -- it worked flawlessly (once you 
>> update drivers, etc.) and has saved me some sleep as our server hardware 
>> is a little older than it should be ;-)
>>
>> Some notes on how I use SP:
>>
>> 1) Schedule a NTBackup system state backup once a week when SP is not 
>> running just in case you need it.
>> 2) To allow exchange logfiles to be properly handled you need to turn on 
>> the exchange VSS writer.  Note that doing this precludes using SBSBackup 
>> but it sounds like you weren't using it anyway (workaround: 
>> http://blog.sbs-rocks.com/2009/06/best-of-both-worlds-shadowprotect-and-sbs-backup/)
>> 3) I find it best to throw in a large un-raided IDE/SATA drive in the 
>> server and backup to that.  I then use robocopy scripts triggered to run 
>> after SP finishes to copy the backups to multiple locations (including 
>> our external USB drive).  You can have SP backup to the external drive 
>> directly, I just like this better as the backup will still run if someone 
>> forgets the external drive.
>>
>> I don't work for them I just really like the program, it has saved my 
>> bacon a couple times already.  If you email them you can download a fully 
>> functional trial version.
>> -- 
>> Allan Williams
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Scott Rymer wrote:
>>> I'm going to be replacing my 72GB (3x36GB) RAID 5 with a 292GB
>>> (3x146GB) RIAD 5 and will also need to change my backup strategy. I'm 
>>> currently using a DAT72 tape drive with SBS2003 and I'm slowing
>>> excluding more and more from the backup so it will fit on the tapes
>>> (don't worry... using an external USB w/ Robocopy for the rest).
>>>
>>> Keeping SBS2008 in mind, I'm contemplating just using external USB
>>> drives but I've been given a competitive quote on Backup Exec (for
>>> SBS) with a DLT 160/320 tape solution and I'm told that this is far
>>> superior to the native SBS backup.  Price wise, I could buy a lot of
>>> portable external USB drives and use the free NT Backup for the price
>>> of the Backup Exec/Tape solution.
>>> I know Backup Exec includes an Exchange Agent and an add-on SQL Agent
>>> but what if I were to setup my future SBS2008 in a Hyper-V 1+1
>>> scenario?  Does Backup Exec cover this as well?  What about NT Backup?
>>>
>>> My gut is telling me to just go with USB drives as it seems the most
>>> popular option in the newsgroups...
>>>
>>> SBS2003 Standard with SQL 2005 Standard on another Win2k3 server.
>>
>>
> 

0
Dave
11/30/2009 8:37:00 PM
Thanks Dave...

Along the same lines as the High Rely, I've been eyeing up a QNAP 4-bay 
Turbo NAS for my disc-to-disc backup.  With this bad boy, I'd be able to do 
incremental backups to NAS using Storage Protect and in the event of a 
failure, setup an iSCSI channel for a secondary server running Virtual 
Server/Hyper-V and restore the SBS to a virtual server running the .vhd on 
the QNAP as well.

I think I'd still be looking at a couple of USB drives w/ robocopy for 
offsite storage.

-Scott

"Dave Nickason [SBS MVP]" <gwdibble@NOSPAM.frontiernet.net> wrote in message 
news:%230FRfzfcKHA.4024@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...
> I've never restored a ShadowProtect backup to a virtual machine myself, 
> but I've seen it demonstrated - the speaker restored a backup of his SBS 
> to a VM on his laptop and booted it up to show how easily it worked. 
> Works great, and you can then back up the VM and restore it back to the 
> SBS as you describe.  (Not to mention that I'm pretty sure you can boot an 
> SP backup in VMWare without restoring - check their site for that).
>
> I saw the coolest thing for SP backups at SMB Nation - a 2-bay High Rely 
> where one drive automatically mirrors to the other.  So you attach this to 
> your server with USB or eSATA, and it shows as a single drive.  As you 
> back up to that drive, the device mirrors one drive to the other, which 
> can be rotated for offsite.  This way, you're not removing or replacing 
> the drive your server sees, which avoids "safely remote" and other errors 
> of that kind.  And, they have fans and temperature monitoring, so you're 
> likely to get better drive life and reliability - I've had a High Rely 
> enclosure going on two years, and while I've had one power supply fail 
> (external) and lost one to a power incident (my fault), the drives and 
> enclosures have been bulletproof.  And their support is excellent. 
> http://high-rely.com/HR3/includes/TandemDXR/TandemDXR.php
>
>
> "Scott Rymer" <tsrymer/at/hotmail/dot/com> wrote in message 
> news:uboYVn4bKHA.5576@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...
>> Allan... thanks so much.  I'm very interested after reading a little on 
>> their website and seeing that this is a very affordable solution.
>> Yes, our hardware is getting older as well and I'm starting to feel 
>> insecure about it but don't really want to replace it since it's been 
>> rock solid since day one.
>>
>> So if I'm reading correctly, with SP, if our SBS were to go down hard 
>> (motherboard failure), I could restore the last SBS backup to a MS 
>> Virtual Server running elsewhere and keep on chugging along while my 
>> "real" SBS is repaired, and then restore the virtual SBS back onto the 
>> physical server? Am I dreaming?
>>
>> I like the idea of having the local IDE/SATA drive on the server and then 
>> copying to removable storage for offsite.  So do you still have a 
>> rotation like tape or does the image based backup preclude needing this 
>> type of strategy for USB?
>>
>> Appreciate all your help!
>>
>> -Scott
>> 

0
Scott
12/1/2009 4:51:57 PM
Sounds cool - I'll take a look at that.

As I probably said, I'm currently using the single bay High Rely for 
offsite - I think it was only about $200 plus drives, so a little more than 
consumer-grade externals, but IMO quite a bit more robust.  I'm copying out 
two weeks worth of SP backups from 3 servers, about 500 GB total, and I'm 
not sure how long a cheaper device would hold up to that.

I'm not necessarily trying to push High Rely, but rather to express my 
preference for a fan-cooled enclosure with a good quality drive.


"Scott Rymer" <tsrymer/at/hotmail/dot/com> wrote in message 
news:AD850547-E07A-423A-9D3A-03012CA79D85@microsoft.com...
> Thanks Dave...
>
> Along the same lines as the High Rely, I've been eyeing up a QNAP 4-bay 
> Turbo NAS for my disc-to-disc backup.  With this bad boy, I'd be able to 
> do incremental backups to NAS using Storage Protect and in the event of a 
> failure, setup an iSCSI channel for a secondary server running Virtual 
> Server/Hyper-V and restore the SBS to a virtual server running the .vhd on 
> the QNAP as well.
>
> I think I'd still be looking at a couple of USB drives w/ robocopy for 
> offsite storage.
>
> -Scott
>
> "Dave Nickason [SBS MVP]" <gwdibble@NOSPAM.frontiernet.net> wrote in 
> message news:%230FRfzfcKHA.4024@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...
>> I've never restored a ShadowProtect backup to a virtual machine myself, 
>> but I've seen it demonstrated - the speaker restored a backup of his SBS 
>> to a VM on his laptop and booted it up to show how easily it worked. 
>> Works great, and you can then back up the VM and restore it back to the 
>> SBS as you describe.  (Not to mention that I'm pretty sure you can boot 
>> an SP backup in VMWare without restoring - check their site for that).
>>
>> I saw the coolest thing for SP backups at SMB Nation - a 2-bay High Rely 
>> where one drive automatically mirrors to the other.  So you attach this 
>> to your server with USB or eSATA, and it shows as a single drive.  As you 
>> back up to that drive, the device mirrors one drive to the other, which 
>> can be rotated for offsite.  This way, you're not removing or replacing 
>> the drive your server sees, which avoids "safely remote" and other errors 
>> of that kind.  And, they have fans and temperature monitoring, so you're 
>> likely to get better drive life and reliability - I've had a High Rely 
>> enclosure going on two years, and while I've had one power supply fail 
>> (external) and lost one to a power incident (my fault), the drives and 
>> enclosures have been bulletproof.  And their support is excellent. 
>> http://high-rely.com/HR3/includes/TandemDXR/TandemDXR.php
>>
>>
>> "Scott Rymer" <tsrymer/at/hotmail/dot/com> wrote in message 
>> news:uboYVn4bKHA.5576@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...
>>> Allan... thanks so much.  I'm very interested after reading a little on 
>>> their website and seeing that this is a very affordable solution.
>>> Yes, our hardware is getting older as well and I'm starting to feel 
>>> insecure about it but don't really want to replace it since it's been 
>>> rock solid since day one.
>>>
>>> So if I'm reading correctly, with SP, if our SBS were to go down hard 
>>> (motherboard failure), I could restore the last SBS backup to a MS 
>>> Virtual Server running elsewhere and keep on chugging along while my 
>>> "real" SBS is repaired, and then restore the virtual SBS back onto the 
>>> physical server? Am I dreaming?
>>>
>>> I like the idea of having the local IDE/SATA drive on the server and 
>>> then copying to removable storage for offsite.  So do you still have a 
>>> rotation like tape or does the image based backup preclude needing this 
>>> type of strategy for USB?
>>>
>>> Appreciate all your help!
>>>
>>> -Scott
>>>
> 

0
Dave
12/1/2009 7:22:01 PM
I've never tried the virtual machine approach (in my test I used a old 
workstation) but I see no reason it wouldn't work.  Just boot the VM on the 
SP CDROM and load the image using HIR.  One note on HIR that got me when I 
was testing it - you need to have SP installed on the source server before 
imaging and doing an HIR to another server otherwise HIR doesn't work 
(licensing thing).

As for copying backups around I just use NT cmd files that robocopy them 
around.  I rotate several WEEK1/WEEK2/etc. directories to keep older backups 
around.  Even with image based backup I like to do a full image on the 
weekend and then incremental throughout the week.  They also support 
continuous incremental (like SBS2008 backup) but I like having multiple 
older backups in case corruption occurs and affects future incrementals.

I agree with Dave that if you haven't bought your USB drives a cage-type 
system may be the way to go, especially if they support automatic mirroring. 
Not sure about NAS - they may be slower and unsure of SP support for them.

-- 
Allan Williams




Scott Rymer wrote:
> Allan... thanks so much.  I'm very interested after reading a little
> on their website and seeing that this is a very affordable solution.
> Yes, our hardware is getting older as well and I'm starting to feel
> insecure about it but don't really want to replace it since it's been
> rock solid since day one.
>
> So if I'm reading correctly, with SP, if our SBS were to go down hard
> (motherboard failure), I could restore the last SBS backup to a MS
> Virtual Server running elsewhere and keep on chugging along while my
> "real" SBS is repaired, and then restore the virtual SBS back onto
> the physical server? Am I dreaming?
>
> I like the idea of having the local IDE/SATA drive on the server and
> then copying to removable storage for offsite.  So do you still have
> a rotation like tape or does the image based backup preclude needing
> this type of strategy for USB?
>
> Appreciate all your help!
>
> -Scott
>
> "Al Williams" <donotreplydirect@usenewsgroup.com> wrote in message
> news:eEahLS4bKHA.1596@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...
>> Sounds very similar to our old situation - using tape and having to
>> do custom backups with NTBackup to make them fit, wondering if you
>> missed anything, wondering if you could handle a full disaster
>> recovery... We switched over to ShadowProtect SBS (SP) last year and 
>> haven't
>> looked back.  I am able to do backups every 2 hours during the day
>> without issues (how often you can backup is based more on the size
>> of your backup drives). It integrates fully into VSS so Exchange &
>> SQL are fully backed up using MS-methods.  Their hardware
>> independent restore (HIR) really works and their backup system is
>> much quicker and efficient than using NTBackup any day.  It also
>> works with SBS2008 (although 2008's native backup has gotten good
>> reviews but I am unsure that it can handle HIR). 
>> http://www.storagecraft.com/shadow_protect_SBS.php
>>
>> Best part, it was easy to actually test and document a disaster
>> recovery scenario -- I could restore my SBS server
>> OS/exchange/SQL/ISA to completely different hardware in an hour (a
>> little longer with all our data) plug in a domain laptop and go --
>> it worked flawlessly (once you update drivers, etc.) and has saved
>> me some sleep as our server hardware is a little older than it
>> should be ;-) Some notes on how I use SP:
>>
>> 1) Schedule a NTBackup system state backup once a week when SP is not
>> running just in case you need it.
>> 2) To allow exchange logfiles to be properly handled you need to
>> turn on the exchange VSS writer.  Note that doing this precludes
>> using SBSBackup but it sounds like you weren't using it anyway
>> (workaround:
>> http://blog.sbs-rocks.com/2009/06/best-of-both-worlds-shadowprotect-and-sbs-backup/)
>> 3) I find it best to throw in a large un-raided IDE/SATA drive in
>> the server and backup to that.  I then use robocopy scripts
>> triggered to run after SP finishes to copy the backups to multiple
>> locations (including our external USB drive).  You can have SP
>> backup to the external drive directly, I just like this better as
>> the backup will still run if someone forgets the external drive. I don't 
>> work for them I just really like the program, it has saved my
>> bacon a couple times already.  If you email them you can download a
>> fully functional trial version.
>> --
>> Allan Williams
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Scott Rymer wrote:
>>> I'm going to be replacing my 72GB (3x36GB) RAID 5 with a 292GB
>>> (3x146GB) RIAD 5 and will also need to change my backup strategy.
>>> I'm currently using a DAT72 tape drive with SBS2003 and I'm slowing
>>> excluding more and more from the backup so it will fit on the tapes
>>> (don't worry... using an external USB w/ Robocopy for the rest).
>>>
>>> Keeping SBS2008 in mind, I'm contemplating just using external USB
>>> drives but I've been given a competitive quote on Backup Exec (for
>>> SBS) with a DLT 160/320 tape solution and I'm told that this is far
>>> superior to the native SBS backup.  Price wise, I could buy a lot of
>>> portable external USB drives and use the free NT Backup for the
>>> price of the Backup Exec/Tape solution.
>>> I know Backup Exec includes an Exchange Agent and an add-on SQL
>>> Agent but what if I were to setup my future SBS2008 in a Hyper-V 1+1
>>> scenario?  Does Backup Exec cover this as well?  What about NT
>>> Backup? My gut is telling me to just go with USB drives as it seems the 
>>> most
>>> popular option in the newsgroups...
>>>
>>> SBS2003 Standard with SQL 2005 Standard on another Win2k3 server. 


0
Al
12/1/2009 8:56:16 PM
Just wanted to say thanks to eveyone for their input.  My final decision is 
StorageProtect SBS with a High-Rely TandemDXR.
I'm still concerned about recovering from a server going down but I'm going 
to leave backup to a backup solution instead of trying to kill 2 birds with 
one stone.  Once I get ShadowProtect going, I'll try to restore a virtual 
SBS to my workstation to see if performance would be an issue should I need 
to go this route.  If it is, I'll have to find another means of disastery 
recovery...

Scott

"Al Williams" <donotreplydirect@usenewsgroup.com> wrote in message 
news:OC0E7iscKHA.808@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...
> I've never tried the virtual machine approach (in my test I used a old 
> workstation) but I see no reason it wouldn't work.  Just boot the VM on 
> the SP CDROM and load the image using HIR.  One note on HIR that got me 
> when I was testing it - you need to have SP installed on the source server 
> before imaging and doing an HIR to another server otherwise HIR doesn't 
> work (licensing thing).
>
> As for copying backups around I just use NT cmd files that robocopy them 
> around.  I rotate several WEEK1/WEEK2/etc. directories to keep older 
> backups around.  Even with image based backup I like to do a full image on 
> the weekend and then incremental throughout the week.  They also support 
> continuous incremental (like SBS2008 backup) but I like having multiple 
> older backups in case corruption occurs and affects future incrementals.
>
> I agree with Dave that if you haven't bought your USB drives a cage-type 
> system may be the way to go, especially if they support automatic 
> mirroring. Not sure about NAS - they may be slower and unsure of SP 
> support for them.
>
> -- 
> Allan Williams
>
>
>
>
> Scott Rymer wrote:
>> Allan... thanks so much.  I'm very interested after reading a little
>> on their website and seeing that this is a very affordable solution.
>> Yes, our hardware is getting older as well and I'm starting to feel
>> insecure about it but don't really want to replace it since it's been
>> rock solid since day one.
>>
>> So if I'm reading correctly, with SP, if our SBS were to go down hard
>> (motherboard failure), I could restore the last SBS backup to a MS
>> Virtual Server running elsewhere and keep on chugging along while my
>> "real" SBS is repaired, and then restore the virtual SBS back onto
>> the physical server? Am I dreaming?
>>
>> I like the idea of having the local IDE/SATA drive on the server and
>> then copying to removable storage for offsite.  So do you still have
>> a rotation like tape or does the image based backup preclude needing
>> this type of strategy for USB?
>>
>> Appreciate all your help!
>>
>> -Scott
>>
>> "Al Williams" <donotreplydirect@usenewsgroup.com> wrote in message
>> news:eEahLS4bKHA.1596@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...
>>> Sounds very similar to our old situation - using tape and having to
>>> do custom backups with NTBackup to make them fit, wondering if you
>>> missed anything, wondering if you could handle a full disaster
>>> recovery... We switched over to ShadowProtect SBS (SP) last year and 
>>> haven't
>>> looked back.  I am able to do backups every 2 hours during the day
>>> without issues (how often you can backup is based more on the size
>>> of your backup drives). It integrates fully into VSS so Exchange &
>>> SQL are fully backed up using MS-methods.  Their hardware
>>> independent restore (HIR) really works and their backup system is
>>> much quicker and efficient than using NTBackup any day.  It also
>>> works with SBS2008 (although 2008's native backup has gotten good
>>> reviews but I am unsure that it can handle HIR). 
>>> http://www.storagecraft.com/shadow_protect_SBS.php
>>>
>>> Best part, it was easy to actually test and document a disaster
>>> recovery scenario -- I could restore my SBS server
>>> OS/exchange/SQL/ISA to completely different hardware in an hour (a
>>> little longer with all our data) plug in a domain laptop and go --
>>> it worked flawlessly (once you update drivers, etc.) and has saved
>>> me some sleep as our server hardware is a little older than it
>>> should be ;-) Some notes on how I use SP:
>>>
>>> 1) Schedule a NTBackup system state backup once a week when SP is not
>>> running just in case you need it.
>>> 2) To allow exchange logfiles to be properly handled you need to
>>> turn on the exchange VSS writer.  Note that doing this precludes
>>> using SBSBackup but it sounds like you weren't using it anyway
>>> (workaround:
>>> http://blog.sbs-rocks.com/2009/06/best-of-both-worlds-shadowprotect-and-sbs-backup/)
>>> 3) I find it best to throw in a large un-raided IDE/SATA drive in
>>> the server and backup to that.  I then use robocopy scripts
>>> triggered to run after SP finishes to copy the backups to multiple
>>> locations (including our external USB drive).  You can have SP
>>> backup to the external drive directly, I just like this better as
>>> the backup will still run if someone forgets the external drive. I don't 
>>> work for them I just really like the program, it has saved my
>>> bacon a couple times already.  If you email them you can download a
>>> fully functional trial version.
>>> --
>>> Allan Williams
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Scott Rymer wrote:
>>>> I'm going to be replacing my 72GB (3x36GB) RAID 5 with a 292GB
>>>> (3x146GB) RIAD 5 and will also need to change my backup strategy.
>>>> I'm currently using a DAT72 tape drive with SBS2003 and I'm slowing
>>>> excluding more and more from the backup so it will fit on the tapes
>>>> (don't worry... using an external USB w/ Robocopy for the rest).
>>>>
>>>> Keeping SBS2008 in mind, I'm contemplating just using external USB
>>>> drives but I've been given a competitive quote on Backup Exec (for
>>>> SBS) with a DLT 160/320 tape solution and I'm told that this is far
>>>> superior to the native SBS backup.  Price wise, I could buy a lot of
>>>> portable external USB drives and use the free NT Backup for the
>>>> price of the Backup Exec/Tape solution.
>>>> I know Backup Exec includes an Exchange Agent and an add-on SQL
>>>> Agent but what if I were to setup my future SBS2008 in a Hyper-V 1+1
>>>> scenario?  Does Backup Exec cover this as well?  What about NT
>>>> Backup? My gut is telling me to just go with USB drives as it seems the 
>>>> most
>>>> popular option in the newsgroups...
>>>>
>>>> SBS2003 Standard with SQL 2005 Standard on another Win2k3 server.
>
> 

0
Scott
12/3/2009 2:36:54 PM
I definitely recommend a thorough test of ShadowProtect restore.  I usually 
verify that I can mount and browse backups as a test that they're completing 
reliably, since it's not generally easy to do frequent test restores.  But, 
it was a relatively new product when I started using it, and I did test a 
number of restores before committing to it.

I do think that if you restore an SBS to a VM running on a workstation, 
you're liable to have performance issues depending on the specs of the 
workstation.  What I consider for this is the speed at which I can get the 
original server repaired or replaced.  We'd be hating life for a day or two 
running SBS in a VM on low-powered hardware, something we'd just have to 
live with.


"Scott Rymer" <tsrymer/at/hotmail/dot/com> wrote in message 
news:FC599FE2-91B9-41E6-9F04-00965DF83F87@microsoft.com...
> Just wanted to say thanks to eveyone for their input.  My final decision 
> is StorageProtect SBS with a High-Rely TandemDXR.
> I'm still concerned about recovering from a server going down but I'm 
> going to leave backup to a backup solution instead of trying to kill 2 
> birds with one stone.  Once I get ShadowProtect going, I'll try to restore 
> a virtual SBS to my workstation to see if performance would be an issue 
> should I need to go this route.  If it is, I'll have to find another means 
> of disastery recovery...
>
> Scott
>
> "Al Williams" <donotreplydirect@usenewsgroup.com> wrote in message 
> news:OC0E7iscKHA.808@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...
>> I've never tried the virtual machine approach (in my test I used a old 
>> workstation) but I see no reason it wouldn't work.  Just boot the VM on 
>> the SP CDROM and load the image using HIR.  One note on HIR that got me 
>> when I was testing it - you need to have SP installed on the source 
>> server before imaging and doing an HIR to another server otherwise HIR 
>> doesn't work (licensing thing).
>>
>> As for copying backups around I just use NT cmd files that robocopy them 
>> around.  I rotate several WEEK1/WEEK2/etc. directories to keep older 
>> backups around.  Even with image based backup I like to do a full image 
>> on the weekend and then incremental throughout the week.  They also 
>> support continuous incremental (like SBS2008 backup) but I like having 
>> multiple older backups in case corruption occurs and affects future 
>> incrementals.
>>
>> I agree with Dave that if you haven't bought your USB drives a cage-type 
>> system may be the way to go, especially if they support automatic 
>> mirroring. Not sure about NAS - they may be slower and unsure of SP 
>> support for them.
>>
>> -- 
>> Allan Williams
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Scott Rymer wrote:
>>> Allan... thanks so much.  I'm very interested after reading a little
>>> on their website and seeing that this is a very affordable solution.
>>> Yes, our hardware is getting older as well and I'm starting to feel
>>> insecure about it but don't really want to replace it since it's been
>>> rock solid since day one.
>>>
>>> So if I'm reading correctly, with SP, if our SBS were to go down hard
>>> (motherboard failure), I could restore the last SBS backup to a MS
>>> Virtual Server running elsewhere and keep on chugging along while my
>>> "real" SBS is repaired, and then restore the virtual SBS back onto
>>> the physical server? Am I dreaming?
>>>
>>> I like the idea of having the local IDE/SATA drive on the server and
>>> then copying to removable storage for offsite.  So do you still have
>>> a rotation like tape or does the image based backup preclude needing
>>> this type of strategy for USB?
>>>
>>> Appreciate all your help!
>>>
>>> -Scott
>>>
>>> "Al Williams" <donotreplydirect@usenewsgroup.com> wrote in message
>>> news:eEahLS4bKHA.1596@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...
>>>> Sounds very similar to our old situation - using tape and having to
>>>> do custom backups with NTBackup to make them fit, wondering if you
>>>> missed anything, wondering if you could handle a full disaster
>>>> recovery... We switched over to ShadowProtect SBS (SP) last year and 
>>>> haven't
>>>> looked back.  I am able to do backups every 2 hours during the day
>>>> without issues (how often you can backup is based more on the size
>>>> of your backup drives). It integrates fully into VSS so Exchange &
>>>> SQL are fully backed up using MS-methods.  Their hardware
>>>> independent restore (HIR) really works and their backup system is
>>>> much quicker and efficient than using NTBackup any day.  It also
>>>> works with SBS2008 (although 2008's native backup has gotten good
>>>> reviews but I am unsure that it can handle HIR). 
>>>> http://www.storagecraft.com/shadow_protect_SBS.php
>>>>
>>>> Best part, it was easy to actually test and document a disaster
>>>> recovery scenario -- I could restore my SBS server
>>>> OS/exchange/SQL/ISA to completely different hardware in an hour (a
>>>> little longer with all our data) plug in a domain laptop and go --
>>>> it worked flawlessly (once you update drivers, etc.) and has saved
>>>> me some sleep as our server hardware is a little older than it
>>>> should be ;-) Some notes on how I use SP:
>>>>
>>>> 1) Schedule a NTBackup system state backup once a week when SP is not
>>>> running just in case you need it.
>>>> 2) To allow exchange logfiles to be properly handled you need to
>>>> turn on the exchange VSS writer.  Note that doing this precludes
>>>> using SBSBackup but it sounds like you weren't using it anyway
>>>> (workaround:
>>>> http://blog.sbs-rocks.com/2009/06/best-of-both-worlds-shadowprotect-and-sbs-backup/)
>>>> 3) I find it best to throw in a large un-raided IDE/SATA drive in
>>>> the server and backup to that.  I then use robocopy scripts
>>>> triggered to run after SP finishes to copy the backups to multiple
>>>> locations (including our external USB drive).  You can have SP
>>>> backup to the external drive directly, I just like this better as
>>>> the backup will still run if someone forgets the external drive. I 
>>>> don't work for them I just really like the program, it has saved my
>>>> bacon a couple times already.  If you email them you can download a
>>>> fully functional trial version.
>>>> --
>>>> Allan Williams
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Scott Rymer wrote:
>>>>> I'm going to be replacing my 72GB (3x36GB) RAID 5 with a 292GB
>>>>> (3x146GB) RIAD 5 and will also need to change my backup strategy.
>>>>> I'm currently using a DAT72 tape drive with SBS2003 and I'm slowing
>>>>> excluding more and more from the backup so it will fit on the tapes
>>>>> (don't worry... using an external USB w/ Robocopy for the rest).
>>>>>
>>>>> Keeping SBS2008 in mind, I'm contemplating just using external USB
>>>>> drives but I've been given a competitive quote on Backup Exec (for
>>>>> SBS) with a DLT 160/320 tape solution and I'm told that this is far
>>>>> superior to the native SBS backup.  Price wise, I could buy a lot of
>>>>> portable external USB drives and use the free NT Backup for the
>>>>> price of the Backup Exec/Tape solution.
>>>>> I know Backup Exec includes an Exchange Agent and an add-on SQL
>>>>> Agent but what if I were to setup my future SBS2008 in a Hyper-V 1+1
>>>>> scenario?  Does Backup Exec cover this as well?  What about NT
>>>>> Backup? My gut is telling me to just go with USB drives as it seems 
>>>>> the most
>>>>> popular option in the newsgroups...
>>>>>
>>>>> SBS2003 Standard with SQL 2005 Standard on another Win2k3 server.
>>
>>
> 

0
Dave
12/3/2009 6:23:13 PM
Scott Rymer wrote:
> Just wanted to say thanks to eveyone for their input.  My final
> decision is StorageProtect SBS with a High-Rely TandemDXR.
> I'm still concerned about recovering from a server going down but I'm
> going to leave backup to a backup solution instead of trying to kill
> 2 birds with one stone.  Once I get ShadowProtect going, I'll try to
> restore a virtual SBS to my workstation to see if performance would
> be an issue should I need to go this route.  If it is, I'll have to
> find another means of disastery recovery...

At least make sure it has multiple drives for OS, data, and Exchange.


-- 
Reply in group, but if emailing add one more
zero, and remove the last word. 


0
Tom
12/4/2009 12:48:00 AM
Dave Nickason [SBS MVP] wrote:
> I definitely recommend a thorough test of ShadowProtect restore.  I
> usually verify that I can mount and browse backups as a test that
> they're completing reliably, since it's not generally easy to do
> frequent test restores.  But, it was a relatively new product when I
> started using it, and I did test a number of restores before
> committing to it.
> I do think that if you restore an SBS to a VM running on a
> workstation, you're liable to have performance issues depending on
> the specs of the workstation.  What I consider for this is the speed
> at which I can get the original server repaired or replaced.  We'd be
> hating life for a day or two running SBS in a VM on low-powered
> hardware, something we'd just have to live with.

Two years ago I had a whole SBS LAN disappear in the night.  They even took 
the paper shredder and the Staples Easy Button, not to mention the backups.

The office was open for less than 2 weeks and backups were going, but 
off-site backups were not yet.  The employees had CDs containing their 
previous work so they had their original starting point.

Insurance paid for temporary hardware as well as the permanent replacements. 
They're still in business and growing.

What pissed me off was that my temporary server had to suffice for 2 more 
weeks because Dell didn't expedite the replacement as they said they would. 
If it blew up they would have had a new one out in a day, but all that 
repeat business was rewarded by waiting as long as ever for a server.

The temporary server was an HP workstation and the fastest thing I could get 
that day, but it wasn't supported by SBS.  I had to add a NIC that SBS had 
drivers for.  I soon realized it needed a separate drive for Exchange and I 
probably should have added one for other data to be separate from the OS.

If I had to do that again I would put something together quickly instead of 
using a ready-made system.


-- 
Reply in group, but if emailing add one more
zero, and remove the last word. 


0
Tom
12/4/2009 1:09:15 AM
Reply:

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