Source of difficulty of automated testing?

   http://www.stickyminds.com/sitewide.asp?ObjectId=6408&Function=edetail&ObjectType=COL

I want to be sure that I understand this problem better. Here is what I need to 
know: Is it possible to design and build custom GUI controls such that even the 
operating system has no way to determine the state of this control? 


0
NoSpam8358 (375)
12/13/2006 1:08:35 AM
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> I want to be sure that I understand this problem better. Here is what I need to
> know: Is it possible to design and build custom GUI controls such that even the
> operating system has no way to determine the state of this control?

Sure. If you write you own window procedure, there is no way to know
what exactly your control does as everything you would be doing is
custom to your control. 

---
Ajay

0
ajaykalra (6842)
12/13/2006 1:34:18 AM
"Ajay Kalra" <ajaykalra@yahoo.com> wrote in message 
news:1165973658.354956.105000@16g2000cwy.googlegroups.com...
>> I want to be sure that I understand this problem better. Here is what I need 
>> to
>> know: Is it possible to design and build custom GUI controls such that even 
>> the
>> operating system has no way to determine the state of this control?
>
> Sure. If you write you own window procedure, there is no way to know
> what exactly your control does as everything you would be doing is
> custom to your control.
>
> ---
> Ajay
>

To what extent can custom controls be created that the operating system is 
incapable of determining the state of this custom control? Is it restricted to 
only the case that you have provided as an example, or are their other possible 
cases of this same problem? 


0
NoSpam8358 (375)
12/13/2006 2:01:16 AM
> To what extent can custom controls be created that the operating system is
> incapable of determining the state of this custom control? Is it restricted to
> only the case that you have provided as an example, or are their other possible
> cases of this same problem?

This question is kind of vague. If you mean to ask is it common to find
such controls, the answer would be no. Clearly thats not the intent of
developer. On other hand all the controls(command bars) on Office
products are custom. I think you will have hard time emulating those.
However since those products have an object model,  these things become
meaningless.

----
Ajay

0
ajaykalra (6842)
12/13/2006 2:09:47 AM
"Ajay Kalra" <ajaykalra@yahoo.com> wrote in message 
news:1165975787.833533.207730@16g2000cwy.googlegroups.com...
>
>> To what extent can custom controls be created that the operating system is
>> incapable of determining the state of this custom control? Is it restricted 
>> to
>> only the case that you have provided as an example, or are their other 
>> possible
>> cases of this same problem?
>
> This question is kind of vague. If you mean to ask is it common to find
> such controls, the answer would be no. Clearly thats not the intent of
> developer. On other hand all the controls(command bars) on Office
> products are custom. I think you will have hard time emulating those.
> However since those products have an object model,  these things become
> meaningless.
>
> ----
> Ajay
>

What I am looking for is a comprehensive set of all cases where my patented 
technology could determine the state of a custom GUI control that MS Windows 
itself could not determine the state of this same custom control.

From what I understand this would be every case where a custom control does not 
expose its state programmatically. The article that I referenced at the 
beginning of this thread infers yet does not fully elaborate these kinds of 
cases. 


0
NoSpam8358 (375)
12/13/2006 2:17:02 AM
I believe the correct answer to this question is "unbelievably trivial".  I do it all the
time.  I make my living at it.  In fact, this is true of every control derived from
CWnd,CStatic, or pretty much every other subclass that has ever been created.

You could even consider that it is the case that the operating system knows the state only
of a minority of controls, the limited set which it implements.  For example, none of the
common dialogs or common controls are known to the operating system at all.  Rich edit is
not known to the operating system.  Every ActiveX control meets the criterion that its
state is not known to the operating system.
					joe
On Tue, 12 Dec 2006 19:08:35 -0600, "Peter Olcott" <NoSpam@SeeScreen.com> wrote:

>   http://www.stickyminds.com/sitewide.asp?ObjectId=6408&Function=edetail&ObjectType=COL
>
>I want to be sure that I understand this problem better. Here is what I need to 
>know: Is it possible to design and build custom GUI controls such that even the 
>operating system has no way to determine the state of this control? 
>
Joseph M. Newcomer [MVP]
email: newcomer@flounder.com
Web: http://www.flounder.com
MVP Tips: http://www.flounder.com/mvp_tips.htm
0
newcomer (15975)
12/13/2006 3:34:20 AM
It could infer what it thinks might be the state based on visual inspection of the
displayed information.  Whether or not this reflects the *actual* state is problematic.  I
have any number of custom controls whose internal state can change independent of any
display on the screen.  

I'm going to send you a snapshot showing a product I worked on.  Note the number of custom
controls.  Not one of these custom controls has a state that is known or observable by the
operating system.  

Beware: some of the controls that look normal are not.  In fact, many of the buttons, and
all of the combo boxes, are owner-draw.  So even the "built-in" controls have states that
are not observable by the operating system.
						joe

On Tue, 12 Dec 2006 20:17:02 -0600, "Peter Olcott" <NoSpam@SeeScreen.com> wrote:

>
>"Ajay Kalra" <ajaykalra@yahoo.com> wrote in message 
>news:1165975787.833533.207730@16g2000cwy.googlegroups.com...
>>
>>> To what extent can custom controls be created that the operating system is
>>> incapable of determining the state of this custom control? Is it restricted 
>>> to
>>> only the case that you have provided as an example, or are their other 
>>> possible
>>> cases of this same problem?
>>
>> This question is kind of vague. If you mean to ask is it common to find
>> such controls, the answer would be no. Clearly thats not the intent of
>> developer. On other hand all the controls(command bars) on Office
>> products are custom. I think you will have hard time emulating those.
>> However since those products have an object model,  these things become
>> meaningless.
>>
>> ----
>> Ajay
>>
>
>What I am looking for is a comprehensive set of all cases where my patented 
>technology could determine the state of a custom GUI control that MS Windows 
>itself could not determine the state of this same custom control.
>
>From what I understand this would be every case where a custom control does not 
>expose its state programmatically. The article that I referenced at the 
>beginning of this thread infers yet does not fully elaborate these kinds of 
>cases. 
>
Joseph M. Newcomer [MVP]
email: newcomer@flounder.com
Web: http://www.flounder.com
MVP Tips: http://www.flounder.com/mvp_tips.htm
0
newcomer (15975)
12/13/2006 3:52:00 AM
On Tue, 12 Dec 2006 20:01:16 -0600, "Peter Olcott"
<NoSpam@SeeScreen.com> wrote:

>To what extent can custom controls be created that the operating system is 
>incapable of determining the state of this custom control? Is it restricted to 
>only the case that you have provided as an example, or are their other possible 
>cases of this same problem? 
>

Hi Peter,

Although it is common for developers to use standard DLL's and
typelibs, there are many other designs where these standard tools are
not used.  Registered messages, memory mapped files, named pipes, UDP
broadcast are all common alternatives for custom inter process
communication.  Even if you could gain access to all of these you
would need to decode the stream protocol or the layout of the memory
mapped file.  For UDP broadcast you would have difficulty binding to
the same port on the same machine.

Some things are designed to be hard to understand in the interest of
protecting intellectual property.

Some things are hard to know the state of because they change state
too rapidly to make observation practical.  An example of this would
be a voice recognition program or a DSP algorithm built into some
hardware device.  These sorts of programs can dump amazing amounts of
diagnostics.

Another sticky aspect of knowing state would be controls that are
implemented with a custom virtual machine of some sort.  The design of
such a machine can be completely unknown and subject to change with
each release of the control.  One need only look to the various
versions of the JAVA runtime for examples.

The key point here is that you need documentation for any custom
control that you intend to spy on or automate.  If not, then you are
reduced to spying on a process's message traffic.  Then having done
that you get to try and guess what the parameters mean.  Are they
window handles?  Are they pointers to memory?  Are they timing values?
Are they offsets into a memory mapped file?  Are they IP addresses?
(Well, you get the idea).

I am not saying that it's impossible to figure these things out,
rather that it is very time consuming.

Good luck with your endeavor,
-Kurt
0
12/14/2006 7:57:11 PM
"Kurt Grittner" <grittkmg_NO_SPAM_@mailbag.com> wrote in message 
news:ft83o21ig2c7aakn83dm1oh2nfrsok812j@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 12 Dec 2006 20:01:16 -0600, "Peter Olcott"
> <NoSpam@SeeScreen.com> wrote:
>
>>To what extent can custom controls be created that the operating system is
>>incapable of determining the state of this custom control? Is it restricted to
>>only the case that you have provided as an example, or are their other 
>>possible
>>cases of this same problem?
>>
>
> Hi Peter,
>
> Although it is common for developers to use standard DLL's and
> typelibs, there are many other designs where these standard tools are
> not used.  Registered messages, memory mapped files, named pipes, UDP
> broadcast are all common alternatives for custom inter process
> communication.  Even if you could gain access to all of these you
> would need to decode the stream protocol or the layout of the memory
> mapped file.  For UDP broadcast you would have difficulty binding to
> the same port on the same machine.
>
> Some things are designed to be hard to understand in the interest of
> protecting intellectual property.
>
> Some things are hard to know the state of because they change state
> too rapidly to make observation practical.  An example of this would
> be a voice recognition program or a DSP algorithm built into some
> hardware device.  These sorts of programs can dump amazing amounts of
> diagnostics.
>
> Another sticky aspect of knowing state would be controls that are
> implemented with a custom virtual machine of some sort.  The design of
> such a machine can be completely unknown and subject to change with
> each release of the control.  One need only look to the various
> versions of the JAVA runtime for examples.
>
> The key point here is that you need documentation for any custom
> control that you intend to spy on or automate.  If not, then you are
> reduced to spying on a process's message traffic.  Then having done
> that you get to try and guess what the parameters mean.  Are they
> window handles?  Are they pointers to memory?  Are they timing values?
> Are they offsets into a memory mapped file?  Are they IP addresses?
> (Well, you get the idea).
>
> I am not saying that it's impossible to figure these things out,
> rather that it is very time consuming.
>
> Good luck with your endeavor,
> -Kurt

My purpose here was to see if there existed some significant cases where my 
patented technology would provide the means for automated testing of GUI 
applications such that no method of spying on the internals of any aspect of the 
operating system or application program could possibly achieve this same degree 
of automation.

It looks like between what you have said, and what Joseph M. Newcomer has told 
me in a private email, there are numerous instances of this. One very 
significant instance of this is custom controls. There is no feasible way to spy 
on the internal operation of either the operating system or a custom GUI control 
itself that will work to determine the current state of this control in as many 
cases as my patented technology.

I already spent 1,000 hours (3.5 months of 12 hour days) beginning last December 
attempting to design around my patent claim 16. Spying on the internals of the 
operating system and or the application program was one of the two possible ways 
discovered to provide some of the functional benefit of my invention.

Now that this way has been shown to have serious permanent gaps in what it can 
automate, and the other method has already been shown to have much more obvious 
gaps, it seems that there is no method besides my patented technology that can 
automatically test (or otherwise automate) as many applications.

Thanks for all your help.

-- 
Patented SeeScreen enables
programs to see anything on
the computer display screen
   www.SeeScreen.com 


0
NoSpam8358 (375)
12/14/2006 8:49:44 PM
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