Is Doc/View Architecture really needed?

Hi
I wanted to try some codes last night and start a default MFC app. with 
Doc/view support. But it gives so much compiler and run-time error because of 
doc/view, i forgot what i want then began to correct the code.

Do you really need Doc/view or do you use doc/view architecture in your 
projects? Or you begin with empty project?
I want to learn when it is not necessary and when it is.
Have you ever faced Doc/View archtecture become painful in your recent 
projects?

I am looking for your opinions.

Thanks.
0
sawer (30)
9/11/2007 4:58:01 PM
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If you are going to have "data" and represent it on the "screen" then doc 
view is helpful.  It doesn't have to be complicated.  The document is just 
where the data resides and the view is the displaying of it.  To be fair you 
can do the same thing with a dialog based application, but, in my opinion, 
you lose some flexibility.  I've never had a problem with doc/view in my 
projects although I admit that there are some where I barely did anything 
with the document class.

What types of errors were you getting?

Tom

"sawer" <sawer@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message 
news:6811D98F-FB30-43DC-8015-0A4A03166B55@microsoft.com...
> Hi
> I wanted to try some codes last night and start a default MFC app. with
> Doc/view support. But it gives so much compiler and run-time error because 
> of
> doc/view, i forgot what i want then began to correct the code.
>
> Do you really need Doc/view or do you use doc/view architecture in your
> projects? Or you begin with empty project?
> I want to learn when it is not necessary and when it is.
> Have you ever faced Doc/View archtecture become painful in your recent
> projects?
>
> I am looking for your opinions.
>
> Thanks.
> 

0
tom.nospam (3240)
9/11/2007 5:08:13 PM
It all depends upon your needs. It works well for some apps and not for 
others. You can still use it even in non data driven apps. Overall its 
helpful.  I have had no problems with doc/view in any app regardless of its 
design.

What specific problem are you having? Why are you getting run time errors 
because of it?

---
Ajay

"sawer" <sawer@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message 
news:6811D98F-FB30-43DC-8015-0A4A03166B55@microsoft.com...
> Hi
> I wanted to try some codes last night and start a default MFC app. with
> Doc/view support. But it gives so much compiler and run-time error because 
> of
> doc/view, i forgot what i want then began to correct the code.
>
> Do you really need Doc/view or do you use doc/view architecture in your
> projects? Or you begin with empty project?
> I want to learn when it is not necessary and when it is.
> Have you ever faced Doc/View archtecture become painful in your recent
> projects?
>
> I am looking for your opinions.
>
> Thanks. 

0
ajaykalra (6842)
9/11/2007 5:10:38 PM
You don't need Doc/View just like you don't need MFC.

However, there's a lot of work to set up similar functionality manually each 
time. After all, you need a set of file extensions and related information 
for each supported document type. And remember that you can have multiple 
views per document.

There's nothing about MFC that prevents you from doing it all yourself. 
Personally, I find Doc/View useful.

-- 
Jonathan Wood
SoftCircuits Programming
http://www.softcircuits.com

"sawer" <sawer@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message 
news:6811D98F-FB30-43DC-8015-0A4A03166B55@microsoft.com...
> Hi
> I wanted to try some codes last night and start a default MFC app. with
> Doc/view support. But it gives so much compiler and run-time error because 
> of
> doc/view, i forgot what i want then began to correct the code.
>
> Do you really need Doc/view or do you use doc/view architecture in your
> projects? Or you begin with empty project?
> I want to learn when it is not necessary and when it is.
> Have you ever faced Doc/View archtecture become painful in your recent
> projects?
>
> I am looking for your opinions.
>
> Thanks. 

0
jwood (1292)
9/11/2007 5:38:03 PM
There were many errors, some of them about header files.
Some of them run-time errors and one of them is about can not start without 
empty document.. something like that. I don't remember well.

To be honest , i still don't understand what is the function of CView class. 

I tried to use splitter window. But it is very painful with MFC. I ignored 
doc view, everything resolved. Like here:
http://www.codeproject.com/useritems/SplitWindow.asp

Now i can finish my GUI. It is very simple GUI. But i really spent to much 
time with MFC wizard codes. I modifed code too much to avoid errors so i 
think myself why i didn't start empty project and wrote at the beginning. 

I asked this because of this problems.
Class view, Properties window, add function etc.. are very useful. But what 
about MFC Application wizards code? 

Do you really use it?
or Do you start empty project?

thanks for all answers.

0
sawer (30)
9/11/2007 7:34:01 PM
"sawer" <sawer@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message 
news:BFD7466A-4323-459D-89F0-E26191384360@microsoft.com...
> There were many errors, some of them about header files.
> Some of them run-time errors and one of them is about can not start 
> without
> empty document.. something like that. I don't remember well.

When you build a new project that uses MFC doc/view it should build and run 
with no errors.  If you have errors there is something wrong with your 
Visual Studio installation setup.

Doc/View is a very good foundation for many Windows programs.

0
Scott
9/11/2007 8:36:28 PM
Firstly, if you created your program with the wizard and it gives errors, 
then your VS installation is broken.

Secondly, even if you are not using the "classic" doc/view approach in 
your program, it does no harm to leave it there. MFC supplies lots of 
goodies that you get for free by using the framework.


> -----Original Message-----
> From: sawer [mailto:sawer@discussions.microsoft.com]
> Posted At: Wednesday, 12 September 2007 2:58 AM
> Posted To: microsoft.public.vc.mfc
> Conversation: Is Doc/View Architecture really needed?
> Subject: Is Doc/View Architecture really needed?
>
> Hi
> I wanted to try some codes last night and start a default MFC app. with
> Doc/view support. But it gives so much compiler and run-time error
> because of
> doc/view, i forgot what i want then began to correct the code.
>
> Do you really need Doc/view or do you use doc/view architecture in your
> projects? Or you begin with empty project?
> I want to learn when it is not necessary and when it is.
> Have you ever faced Doc/View archtecture become painful in your recent
> projects?
>
> I am looking for your opinions.
>
> Thanks.

0
anyone3666 (139)
9/11/2007 9:57:06 PM
The MFC wizards will generate the Doc/View for you. If that code won't 
compile then you have other issues. It's always worked for me.

The function of a view is essentially a window to your document. Generally, 
this is your main window, or in the case of an MDI application, one of the 
main child windows. Basically, a view should display the associated 
document.

I've used the splitter window too without much trouble.

I ABSOLUTELY use the MFC wizards to create my initial application every 
single time I use any part of MFC. You should do this and verify what is 
created will compile. If it does, try one thing at a time. If something 
doesn't work, you can ask about it here.

-- 
Jonathan Wood
SoftCircuits Programming
http://www.softcircuits.com

"sawer" <sawer@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message 
news:BFD7466A-4323-459D-89F0-E26191384360@microsoft.com...
> There were many errors, some of them about header files.
> Some of them run-time errors and one of them is about can not start 
> without
> empty document.. something like that. I don't remember well.
>
> To be honest , i still don't understand what is the function of CView 
> class.
>
> I tried to use splitter window. But it is very painful with MFC. I ignored
> doc view, everything resolved. Like here:
> http://www.codeproject.com/useritems/SplitWindow.asp
>
> Now i can finish my GUI. It is very simple GUI. But i really spent to much
> time with MFC wizard codes. I modifed code too much to avoid errors so i
> think myself why i didn't start empty project and wrote at the beginning.
>
> I asked this because of this problems.
> Class view, Properties window, add function etc.. are very useful. But 
> what
> about MFC Application wizards code?
>
> Do you really use it?
> or Do you start empty project?
>
> thanks for all answers.
> 

0
jwood (1292)
9/12/2007 1:05:17 AM
do the scribble tutorial and use MSDN to learn what you're doing each step 


0
9/12/2007 1:08:31 AM
Hi Jonathan,

Just to comment on your comment...

I think people often over complicate Doc/View and perhaps the reason it 
comes across as being mysterious has to do with the name.  Perhaps if it 
were called Data/View instead that would make it easier to understand.  I 
find that a lot of people confuse "Doc" with Word .DOC files and think it 
has to do with storing the data to a file.  That is a convenient part of the 
paradigm, but it works well even when no data is saved.

Tom

"Jonathan Wood" <jwood@softcircuits.com> wrote in message 
news:OS0xJqJ9HHA.464@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...
> You don't need Doc/View just like you don't need MFC.
>
> However, there's a lot of work to set up similar functionality manually 
> each time. After all, you need a set of file extensions and related 
> information for each supported document type. And remember that you can 
> have multiple views per document.
>
> There's nothing about MFC that prevents you from doing it all yourself. 
> Personally, I find Doc/View useful.
>
> -- 
> Jonathan Wood
> SoftCircuits Programming
> http://www.softcircuits.com
>
> "sawer" <sawer@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message 
> news:6811D98F-FB30-43DC-8015-0A4A03166B55@microsoft.com...
>> Hi
>> I wanted to try some codes last night and start a default MFC app. with
>> Doc/view support. But it gives so much compiler and run-time error 
>> because of
>> doc/view, i forgot what i want then began to correct the code.
>>
>> Do you really need Doc/view or do you use doc/view architecture in your
>> projects? Or you begin with empty project?
>> I want to learn when it is not necessary and when it is.
>> Have you ever faced Doc/View archtecture become painful in your recent
>> projects?
>>
>> I am looking for your opinions.
>>
>> Thanks.
> 

0
tom.nospam (3240)
9/13/2007 3:20:25 PM
Tom,

> I think people often over complicate Doc/View and perhaps the reason it 
> comes across as being mysterious has to do with the name.  Perhaps if it 
> were called Data/View instead that would make it easier to understand.  I 
> find that a lot of people confuse "Doc" with Word .DOC files and think it 
> has to do with storing the data to a file.  That is a convenient part of 
> the paradigm, but it works well even when no data is saved.

I agree that is the case at least sometimes. I've heard people say things 
like "my application doesn't implement a document." It's a document only in 
an abstract sense and perhaps renaming it would help.

But once you understand it, it all seems to make sense. <g>

-- 
Jonathan Wood
SoftCircuits Programming
http://www.softcircuits.com

0
jwood (1292)
9/13/2007 10:23:42 PM

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jonathan Wood [mailto:jwood@softcircuits.com]
> Posted At: Friday, 14 September 2007 8:24 AM
> Posted To: microsoft.public.vc.mfc
> Conversation: Is Doc/View Architecture really needed?
> Subject: Re: Is Doc/View Architecture really needed?
>
> Tom,
>
> > I think people often over complicate Doc/View and perhaps the reason
> it
> > comes across as being mysterious has to do with the name.  Perhaps if
> it
> > were called Data/View instead that would make it easier to
> understand.  I
> > find that a lot of people confuse "Doc" with Word .DOC files and
> think it
> > has to do with storing the data to a file.  That is a convenient part
> of
> > the paradigm, but it works well even when no data is saved.
>
> I agree that is the case at least sometimes. I've heard people say
> things
> like "my application doesn't implement a document." It's a document
> only in
> an abstract sense and perhaps renaming it would help.
>
> But once you understand it, it all seems to make sense. <g>
>
> --
> Jonathan Wood
> SoftCircuits Programming
> http://www.softcircuits.com

Yes, the nomenclature is confusing, but unfortunately, most of the 
examples and the facilities offered by the framework revolve around 
opening a file, working on it, and saving it etc. This is but one type of 
application.

The same goes with UI thread, which causes much confusion. People tend to 
think it is OK and desirable to use it as another user interface process. 
Message thread might be a better term.


0
anyone3666 (139)
9/14/2007 4:53:25 AM
I also think that anyone who uses "data" will eventually want to save it 
even if they don't think they want to now.  That's why I always use MDI.  I 
think once they want to save the document they will eventually want to view 
more than one file at a time.  This is the natural evolution of MFC programs 
according to Tom :o)

Tom

"Jonathan Wood" <jwood@softcircuits.com> wrote in message 
news:edECJTl9HHA.2752@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...
> Tom,
>
>> I think people often over complicate Doc/View and perhaps the reason it 
>> comes across as being mysterious has to do with the name.  Perhaps if it 
>> were called Data/View instead that would make it easier to understand.  I 
>> find that a lot of people confuse "Doc" with Word .DOC files and think it 
>> has to do with storing the data to a file.  That is a convenient part of 
>> the paradigm, but it works well even when no data is saved.
>
> I agree that is the case at least sometimes. I've heard people say things 
> like "my application doesn't implement a document." It's a document only 
> in an abstract sense and perhaps renaming it would help.
>
> But once you understand it, it all seems to make sense. <g>
>
> -- 
> Jonathan Wood
> SoftCircuits Programming
> http://www.softcircuits.com
> 

0
tom.nospam (3240)
9/14/2007 3:43:21 PM
Reply:

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