If you had to move from VB6...

In another thread, someone said that compared to VB Fred, VB6 was
pathetic.

This low attempt to turn me from my private choice of language slid
off my back like water on a duck.

However, it did pique my curiosity.

If I had to move from VB6, which language would I choose.
Which language would most resemble it in IDE, ease of coding and, yes,
RAD quality.

I would accept a learning curve about the same I had to go through
with VB6. About a hundred hours to get a simple database program
running (from picking up the course book) and about a year or two to
get moderatly proficient in it.

I came up with RealBasic, Delphi (though I heard it's on the way out),
maybe C# (but I would try to keep away from M$ stuff), and not Java.

What do you think ?
0
bitshifter
2/15/2010 3:33:01 PM
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VB.NET is easiest pick.  VB.NET is not VB(classic).

HOWEVER, I have found benefit from making a "clean break", and instead of 
accidentally bringing any bad vb6 practices with you, going to C# is my 
suggestion.

2 reasons.  Reason 1 is that most msdn code samples are in vb.net and c#. 
So your famaliarity with vb will make seeing the C# sample "pop out" to you, 
because you'll usually have the vb.net sitting right above it.
Reason 2 is that most microsoft internal development is done in C# now.

If you've ever attending TechEd or any other Microsoft event, you are hard 
pressed to find any vb.net example in the presentations.


Check this:
http://www.codeproject.com/KB/dotnet/CSharpVersusVB.aspx

Do I agree 100% of it, maybe not.  However it is a good read to do as you 
make YOUR decision on what to do.
Criticism's of the article are fine (from other posters).  But picking one 
point and saying "that's stupid, disregard the entire article" is the ole 
throw the baby out with the bath water.  I think the article above is a good 
read to ~~assist you in making your decision, but not to make the decision 
for you.

Good luck.  It's 2010.  It's time to move forward.

But VS2010/C# would be my suggestion (among the many different ones you 
might receive).  VS2010 is only a few weeks off.  Its in RC mode right now 
( Release Candidate ) which you can get from technet.microsoft.com




<bitshifter@sympatico.ca> wrote in message 
news:4b79674f.1840625@news.newshosting.com...
> In another thread, someone said that compared to VB Fred, VB6 was
> pathetic.
>
> This low attempt to turn me from my private choice of language slid
> off my back like water on a duck.
>
> However, it did pique my curiosity.
>
> If I had to move from VB6, which language would I choose.
> Which language would most resemble it in IDE, ease of coding and, yes,
> RAD quality.
>
> I would accept a learning curve about the same I had to go through
> with VB6. About a hundred hours to get a simple database program
> running (from picking up the course book) and about a year or two to
> get moderatly proficient in it.
>
> I came up with RealBasic, Delphi (though I heard it's on the way out),
> maybe C# (but I would try to keep away from M$ stuff), and not Java.
>
> What do you think ? 


0
sloan
2/15/2010 3:56:24 PM
<bitshifter@sympatico.ca> wrote in message 
news:4b79674f.1840625@news.newshosting.com...

> If I had to move from VB6, which language would I choose.
> Which language would most resemble it in IDE, ease of coding and, yes,
> RAD quality.

Not so much what I WOULD do but what I DID do was to move to C#. But then I 
already had experience with C before VB, so it wasn't that much of a shock 
to me. 


0
Jeff
2/15/2010 4:10:08 PM
On 2010-02-15, bitshifter@sympatico.ca <bitshifter@sympatico.ca> wrote:
> In another thread, someone said that compared to VB Fred, VB6 was
> pathetic.
>

Just so you understand - I in no way meant that VB6 overall was pathetic.  I
was only making reference to the particular features that were called out in
the post I responded to...

> This low attempt to turn me from my private choice of language slid
> off my back like water on a duck.
>
> However, it did pique my curiosity.
>
> If I had to move from VB6, which language would I choose.
> Which language would most resemble it in IDE, ease of coding and, yes,
> RAD quality.
>
> I would accept a learning curve about the same I had to go through
> with VB6. About a hundred hours to get a simple database program
> running (from picking up the course book) and about a year or two to
> get moderatly proficient in it.
>
> I came up with RealBasic, Delphi (though I heard it's on the way out),
> maybe C# (but I would try to keep away from M$ stuff), and not Java.
>
> What do you think ?

Well personally, I moved years ago to C#.  But, if I was going non-MS, I would
go Java or C++.  If I wanted to stay with basic (unlikely), then I would look
at powerbasic.

-- 
Tom Shelton
0
Tom
2/15/2010 4:30:04 PM
>
> I came up with RealBasic, Delphi (though I heard it's on the way out),
> maybe C# (but I would try to keep away from M$ stuff), and not Java.
>

   Why maybe C# and not Java? C# was designed
to compete with Java. They're both semi-sandboxed,
OO, JIT-compiled systems running on a VM and
designed for server-side/intranet applets.

   Isn't the question, really, whether you want to go
along with a sandboxed OS -- Microsoft's planned future
of software as a service? Maybe a future where you
might shortly have to buy webhosting on Azure and
get approval in order for your software to run on
Windows? One can be for or against that, but it
seems important to go into it with eyes open. .Nxt
is the Java-fying of the Windows API. It's a radical
new direction.

   There have been several discussions of various
3rd-party Basics here in the past. I can never
keep track of them all, and most (including the
Linux-based attempts) seem to have the fatal flaw
that they see all Basic coders as glorified scripters
who need everything encased in safe wrappers. They
equate verbose code with stupidity. (What I like
to think of as "Perl syndrome". :)

   I think Nobody posted a comprehensive list at
one point. Maybe he'll share that again.



0
mayayana
2/15/2010 4:36:10 PM
"sloan" <sloan@ipass.net> wrote in message 
news:eAhcudlrKHA.5896@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
> Good luck.  It's 2010.  It's time to move forward.

I'd love to move forward, but dotnet doesn't take me in that direction.


0
Bob
2/15/2010 4:41:58 PM
<bitshifter@sympatico.ca> wrote in message 
news:4b79674f.1840625@news.newshosting.com...
> What do you think ?

KBasic is the closest to VB6 out there, but I am not sure how many are using 
it now. It's 100% VB6 code compatible according to the author. It's written 
in VC 2008. It uses Qt as GUI kit and it's multi platform open source, and 
can create EXE's without dependency on any runtime. It will probably replace 
VB6 after many start to use it or contribute to it's development. Because it 
uses Qt as GUI, the hard part is converting VB6 forms. I haven't installed 
it, so I don't know how easy to develop with it.

http://www.kbasic.com
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qt_%28framework%29

The site seems to be down at the moment, so here is the Internet Archive 
version:

http://web.archive.org/web/20080507023915rn_1/www.kbasic.com/doku.php


0
Nobody
2/15/2010 4:48:08 PM
On 2010-02-15, mayayana <mayayana@nospam.invalid> wrote:
>>
>> I came up with RealBasic, Delphi (though I heard it's on the way out),
>> maybe C# (but I would try to keep away from M$ stuff), and not Java.
>>
>
>    Why maybe C# and not Java? C# was designed
> to compete with Java. They're both semi-sandboxed,
> OO, JIT-compiled systems running on a VM and
> designed for server-side/intranet applets.
>
>    Isn't the question, really, whether you want to go
> along with a sandboxed OS -- Microsoft's planned future
> of software as a service? Maybe a future where you
> might shortly have to buy webhosting on Azure and
> get approval in order for your software to run on
> Windows? One can be for or against that, but it
> seems important to go into it with eyes open. .Nxt
> is the Java-fying of the Windows API. It's a radical
> new direction.
>
>    There have been several discussions of various
> 3rd-party Basics here in the past. I can never
> keep track of them all, and most (including the
> Linux-based attempts) seem to have the fatal flaw
> that they see all Basic coders as glorified scripters
> who need everything encased in safe wrappers. They
> equate verbose code with stupidity. (What I like
> to think of as "Perl syndrome". :)
>
>    I think Nobody posted a comprehensive list at
> one point. Maybe he'll share that again.
>
>
>


-- 
Tom Shelton
0
Tom
2/15/2010 4:58:03 PM
On 2010-02-15, sloan <sloan@ipass.net> wrote:
>
> VB.NET is easiest pick.  VB.NET is not VB(classic).
>
> HOWEVER, I have found benefit from making a "clean break", and instead of 
> accidentally bringing any bad vb6 practices with you, going to C# is my 
> suggestion.
>
> 2 reasons.  Reason 1 is that most msdn code samples are in vb.net and c#. 
> So your famaliarity with vb will make seeing the C# sample "pop out" to you, 
> because you'll usually have the vb.net sitting right above it.
> Reason 2 is that most microsoft internal development is done in C# now.
>
> If you've ever attending TechEd or any other Microsoft event, you are hard 
> pressed to find any vb.net example in the presentations.
>
>
> Check this:
> http://www.codeproject.com/KB/dotnet/CSharpVersusVB.aspx
>
> Do I agree 100% of it, maybe not.  However it is a good read to do as you 
> make YOUR decision on what to do.
> Criticism's of the article are fine (from other posters).  But picking one 
> point and saying "that's stupid, disregard the entire article" is the ole 
> throw the baby out with the bath water.  I think the article above is a good 
> read to ~~assist you in making your decision, but not to make the decision 
> for you.

Yeah...  Especially since as of C#4 (supported in VS2010) adds

	1) easier earlier binding via the dynamic keyword
	2) optional parameters (grrrrr!) - I've already updated our
	   internal coding standards to disallow them in public interces

VS2008sp1 added background compilation for C# - the funny thing though is that it
doesn't seem to actually slow the C# ide down nearly as much as the vb
version...

-- 
Tom Shelton
0
Tom
2/15/2010 5:50:34 PM
Since 75-80% of my work is now VB .NET... That's what I'd choose.  There are 
lots of reasons, but the primary one is that it still is easiest for me to 
use.

Dick

-- 
Richard Grier, Consultant, Hard & Software 12962 West Louisiana Avenue 
Lakewood, CO 80228 303-986-2179 (voice) Homepage: www.hardandsoftware.net 
Author of Visual Basic Programmer's Guide to Serial Communications, 4th 
Edition ISBN 1-890422-28-2 (391 pages) published July 2004, Revised July 
2006. 

0
DickGrier
2/15/2010 5:56:27 PM
>
> --
> Tom Shelton

  Do you realize how often you post nothing?
I'm never sure whether it's meant to be some
sort of Zennie trip, or whether you just get
so worked up that you forget to paste your
post. :)


0
mayayana
2/15/2010 5:57:24 PM
The eternal sparkle of the clean zen post  ;-)

On Mon, 15 Feb 2010 08:58:03 -0800, Tom Shelton
<tom_shelton@comcastXXXXXXX.net> wrote:

>On 2010-02-15, mayayana <mayayana@nospam.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>> I came up with RealBasic, Delphi (though I heard it's on the way out),
>>> maybe C# (but I would try to keep away from M$ stuff), and not Java.
>>>
>>
>>    Why maybe C# and not Java? C# was designed
>> to compete with Java. They're both semi-sandboxed,
>> OO, JIT-compiled systems running on a VM and
>> designed for server-side/intranet applets.
>>
>>    Isn't the question, really, whether you want to go
>> along with a sandboxed OS -- Microsoft's planned future
>> of software as a service? Maybe a future where you
>> might shortly have to buy webhosting on Azure and
>> get approval in order for your software to run on
>> Windows? One can be for or against that, but it
>> seems important to go into it with eyes open. .Nxt
>> is the Java-fying of the Windows API. It's a radical
>> new direction.
>>
>>    There have been several discussions of various
>> 3rd-party Basics here in the past. I can never
>> keep track of them all, and most (including the
>> Linux-based attempts) seem to have the fatal flaw
>> that they see all Basic coders as glorified scripters
>> who need everything encased in safe wrappers. They
>> equate verbose code with stupidity. (What I like
>> to think of as "Perl syndrome". :)
>>
>>    I think Nobody posted a comprehensive list at
>> one point. Maybe he'll share that again.
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>-- 
>Tom Shelton

0
bitshifter
2/15/2010 6:27:22 PM
Thanks, Nobody.

I'll give it a look-see and maybe test it.


On Mon, 15 Feb 2010 11:48:08 -0500, "Nobody" <nobody@nobody.com>
wrote:

><bitshifter@sympatico.ca> wrote in message 
>news:4b79674f.1840625@news.newshosting.com...
>> What do you think ?
>
>KBasic is the closest to VB6 out there, but I am not sure how many are using 
>it now. It's 100% VB6 code compatible according to the author. It's written 
>in VC 2008. It uses Qt as GUI kit and it's multi platform open source, and 
>can create EXE's without dependency on any runtime. It will probably replace 
>VB6 after many start to use it or contribute to it's development. Because it 
>uses Qt as GUI, the hard part is converting VB6 forms. I haven't installed 
>it, so I don't know how easy to develop with it.
>
>http://www.kbasic.com
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qt_%28framework%29
>
>The site seems to be down at the moment, so here is the Internet Archive 
>version:
>
>http://web.archive.org/web/20080507023915rn_1/www.kbasic.com/doku.php
>
>

0
bitshifter
2/15/2010 6:28:52 PM
On 2010-02-15, mayayana <mayayana@nospam.invalid> wrote:
>>
>> --
>> Tom Shelton
>
>   Do you realize how often you post nothing?
> I'm never sure whether it's meant to be some
> sort of Zennie trip, or whether you just get
> so worked up that you forget to paste your
> post. :)
>
>

It's a slip of the fingers.  I started to reply - then though better about it.
I just hit the wrong key.

-- 
Tom Shelton
0
Tom
2/15/2010 6:40:43 PM
<bitshifter@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:4b79674f.1840625@news.newshosting.com...
> In another thread, someone said that compared to VB Fred, VB6 was
> pathetic.
>
> This low attempt to turn me from my private choice of language slid
> off my back like water on a duck.
>
> However, it did pique my curiosity.
>
> If I had to move from VB6, which language would I choose.
> Which language would most resemble it in IDE, ease of coding and, yes,
> RAD quality.
>

Surprisingly. Delphi most resembles the 'Visual Basic Windows Development"
(vb5/6) product in terms of the IDE, ease of coding, and RAD.

But that is a whole new language.

> I would accept a learning curve about the same I had to go through
> with VB6. About a hundred hours to get a simple database program
> running (from picking up the course book) and about a year or two to
> get moderatly proficient in it.
>

Then Delphi would be it. Learning or rather re-learning will be quicker
since you already know the basics.

[I don't use Delphi myself. This is just a personal observation from
watching many teams go that direction.]

> I came up with RealBasic, Delphi (though I heard it's on the way out),
> maybe C# (but I would try to keep away from M$ stuff), and not Java.
>

[PS: Delphi HAS always been on its way out. <g>]

Unfortunately none of the BASICs would rank as a "step-forward". (IMHO) All
are either a "C-ish" front-end, or a 90's BASIC, ie, no real improvement on
'features'.

"VB.Net" is only a BASIC-esque front-end for .Net Framework Development.  MS
merely coop'd the name "Visual Basic" just as they did for Visual Basic for
DOS.  DotNet is an entirely different ballgame. You will spend your 100+
hours learning the Framework.

> What do you think ?

Forget the actual language. The real question is what development package do
you want to use?

Or look at it this way. Migrating to vb.net because you used VB6 is a
terrible reason. But migrating to vb.net because you want to stay with MS's
development packages is a good reason. (With MS is now dotNet or the
Highway) But in that case why bother with VB.Net and just use VC++ and C#
(unless funny punctuation and case-sensitivity annoys you).

If you want to avoid MS on Windows then it is C++ or Java - but doing Java
on Windows, with the limited toolset (again IMHO), is just plain making it
tougher on yourself. It is like doing COM on Linix - sure it can be done,
but why? Spend your days playing with tools that are "as good as ...". Hell
who wants to be *just* as good as? <g>

And now here is where I really get flamed... <g>

Frankly, if you want to avoid MS, then avoid Windows. It's their world and
they call all the shots - get used to it or leave. Whine, wimper, b*tch or
cry - at the end of the day - no one cares, especially not MS.

-ralph





0
Ralph
2/15/2010 6:41:12 PM
How many times have we had this discussion in the last year alone?  Is it so 
hard to do a little searching via Google groups to read those discussions?

All this does is open the door for the fvcking .nxt evangelists to spout 
thier crap.  Oops, look like they already have.  Way to go pal.


<bitshifter@sympatico.ca> wrote in message 
news:4b79674f.1840625@news.newshosting.com...
| In another thread, someone said that compared to VB Fred, VB6 was
| pathetic.
|
| This low attempt to turn me from my private choice of language slid
| off my back like water on a duck.
|
| However, it did pique my curiosity.
|
| If I had to move from VB6, which language would I choose.
| Which language would most resemble it in IDE, ease of coding and, yes,
| RAD quality.
|
| I would accept a learning curve about the same I had to go through
| with VB6. About a hundred hours to get a simple database program
| running (from picking up the course book) and about a year or two to
| get moderatly proficient in it.
|
| I came up with RealBasic, Delphi (though I heard it's on the way out),
| maybe C# (but I would try to keep away from M$ stuff), and not Java.
|
| What do you think ? 


0
C
2/15/2010 7:05:26 PM
My simple question would be why would you move ?

I do not see anny good reassons to abandon VB6 for a product that can`t 
completly replace VB6
why can we have a C++ version in Visual studio .Net  that can run without 
the FW  and not a reall Visual Basic  version that can do the same ?

IMHO :

MS should have  created a Visual basic version in Visual studio that would 
give the developer the choice to use .Net or not

Currently i code in both and despite that some people like to believe the 
learning curve isn`t that high,  back and forward just buy yourself the 
Balena books and you are up in a few hours
going up or down ( VB.Net to VB6  or VB6 to VB.Net )

HTH

Michel




<bitshifter@sympatico.ca> schreef in bericht 
news:4b79674f.1840625@news.newshosting.com...
> In another thread, someone said that compared to VB Fred, VB6 was
> pathetic.
>
> This low attempt to turn me from my private choice of language slid
> off my back like water on a duck.
>
> However, it did pique my curiosity.
>
> If I had to move from VB6, which language would I choose.
> Which language would most resemble it in IDE, ease of coding and, yes,
> RAD quality.
>
> I would accept a learning curve about the same I had to go through
> with VB6. About a hundred hours to get a simple database program
> running (from picking up the course book) and about a year or two to
> get moderatly proficient in it.
>
> I came up with RealBasic, Delphi (though I heard it's on the way out),
> maybe C# (but I would try to keep away from M$ stuff), and not Java.
>
> What do you think ? 

0
Michel
2/15/2010 7:52:38 PM
Hi,

bitshifter@sympatico.ca schrieb:

> ...
> If I had to move from VB6, which language would I choose.
> Which language would most resemble it in IDE, ease of coding and, yes,
> RAD quality.
> 
> I would accept a learning curve about the same I had to go through
> with VB6. About a hundred hours to get a simple database program
> running (from picking up the course book) and about a year or two to
> get moderatly proficient in it.
> 
> I came up with RealBasic, Delphi (though I heard it's on the way out),
> maybe C# (but I would try to keep away from M$ stuff), and not Java.
> 
> What do you think ?

If you can bite the bullet C++, for desktop apps I would suggest Qt from 
Nokia (former Trolltech). They have a nice, fairly complete framework 
(that, btw, shields you from some of the badest C++ misconceptions), a 
very decent IDE that manages the full development cycle, and it has a 
completely free version, which allows development of commercial apps.

Comes with extensive documentation, with thoroughfully detailed and 
explained code examples and tutorials, all integrated in the IDE. The 
IDE has a visual GUI builder (with one-click plumbing code creation) and 
a really very good code editor, that offers intellisense and all other 
things one would expect (like code folding, code completion, class 
browser, even text zoom and word wrap ;-). It has a sophisticated visual 
block marking feature and much more.

It is multiplatform (Windows and Linux so far, also some mobile and 
embedded Oses), and does not treat the windows version as a poor cousin.

Qt has been around for quite a while, is mature (current version is 
4.6), actively developed, and used by many (also big) applications and 
even OS-managers (like KDE on Linux).

The framework assists nice, modern GUIs, has sophisticated controls 
(including a html renderer based on Webkit), applications and html are 
scriptable with Javascript. It allows for flying windows, projectable 
(while staying fully functional) on 3d-surfaces, alphablending and color 
blending, skinning and the like :-)

It has very good internationalization support build in to the box, 
decent action handling that can even make use or be controlled by a full 
fledged state machine.

On Windows AFAIR the free version has basic support for COM (can use 
COM-servers). For full fledged COM including creation of COM-Servers one 
would have to buy the commercial version or program it on ones own.

See <http://qt.nokia.com/> for further informations.

However the learning curve will be rather steep. First because of the 
big framework (but this would be so on .NET too, and, to my oppinion, 
the Qt framework is better organized than the .NET one).

And second because the programming language used is C++. This might be a 
show stopper. C++ is so ugly ;-) However the framework assists shipping 
around the most basic C++ gruelties, eg. has smart pointers, an 
automatic memory release feature based on parent-child relationships: 
when the parent goes, all childs go with him and their memory is cleaned 
up (including calls to finalizers if necessary).

One strategy to survive would be to construct the parent (eg the main 
window object) on the stack (in the main routine) or static. Then 
cleanup is fully automatic.

-- 
Ulrich Korndoerfer

VB tips, helpers, solutions -> http://www.proSource.de/Downloads/
0
Ulrich
2/15/2010 7:57:25 PM
Ralph wrote:

> 
> Surprisingly. Delphi most resembles the 'Visual Basic Windows Development"
> (vb5/6) product in terms of the IDE, ease of coding, and RAD.
> 
> But that is a whole new language.


Or a whole /old/ language.


Personally, I learned to hate Pascal-the-language by the early 1980s.
Even though it's "newer" than Basic, and came from similar roots,
the verbosity of Basic remains far more approachable, and stays
much more human-readable after one has forgotten one's own code.




	Bob
-- 
0
Bob
2/15/2010 8:17:39 PM
"Bob O`Bob" <filterbob@yahoogroups.com> wrote in message 
news:%23RkYyvnrKHA.3908@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...
> Ralph wrote:
>
>>
>> Surprisingly. Delphi most resembles the 'Visual Basic Windows 
>> Development"
>> (vb5/6) product in terms of the IDE, ease of coding, and RAD.
>>
>> But that is a whole new language.
>
>
> Or a whole /old/ language.
>
>
> Personally, I learned to hate Pascal-the-language by the early 1980s.
> Even though it's "newer" than Basic, and came from similar roots,
> the verbosity of Basic remains far more approachable, and stays
> much more human-readable after one has forgotten one's own code.
>

Human readable is largely (IME) to do with your own coding style.
I pretty much use the same style I used with VB5/6 in my Delphi Code and it 
looks pretty readable to me.

And all you guys (or gals (-; ) that had C exposure certainly wouldn't be 
off put by Delphi.

You just replace the curly braces with "begin" and "end;"  How hard could 
that be?

I think once you get used to the scoping rules of the units, you have a 
fairly gentle slope to climb acclimating to the language.

>
>
> Bob
> -- 



0
Mike
2/15/2010 8:29:47 PM
"Ralph" <nt_consulting64@yahoo.com> wrote in message 
news:uhkHd8mrKHA.5940@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...
> <bitshifter@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> news:4b79674f.1840625@news.newshosting.com...
>> In another thread, someone said that compared to VB Fred, VB6 was
>> pathetic.
>>
>> This low attempt to turn me from my private choice of language slid
>> off my back like water on a duck.
>>
>> However, it did pique my curiosity.
>>
>> If I had to move from VB6, which language would I choose.
>> Which language would most resemble it in IDE, ease of coding and, yes,
>> RAD quality.
>>

  I didn't start using Delphi much until the .Nxt stuff started.  I have 
been using D7 since then.  I recently upgraded to D2010 but haven't 
installed it yet.  The D2010 IDE includes both Delphi and C#, so there are 
some options there for flexibility, FWIW.

> Surprisingly. Delphi most resembles the 'Visual Basic Windows Development"
> (vb5/6) product in terms of the IDE, ease of coding, and RAD.
>
> But that is a whole new language.
>
>> I would accept a learning curve about the same I had to go through
>> with VB6. About a hundred hours to get a simple database program
>> running (from picking up the course book) and about a year or two to
>> get moderatly proficient in it.
>>
>
> Then Delphi would be it. Learning or rather re-learning will be quicker
> since you already know the basics.
>
> [I don't use Delphi myself. This is just a personal observation from
> watching many teams go that direction.]
>
>> I came up with RealBasic, Delphi (though I heard it's on the way out),
>> maybe C# (but I would try to keep away from M$ stuff), and not Java.
>>
>
> [PS: Delphi HAS always been on its way out. <g>]
>
> Unfortunately none of the BASICs would rank as a "step-forward". (IMHO) 
> All
> are either a "C-ish" front-end, or a 90's BASIC, ie, no real improvement 
> on
> 'features'.
>
> "VB.Net" is only a BASIC-esque front-end for .Net Framework Development. 
> MS
> merely coop'd the name "Visual Basic" just as they did for Visual Basic 
> for
> DOS.  DotNet is an entirely different ballgame. You will spend your 100+
> hours learning the Framework.
>
>> What do you think ?
>
> Forget the actual language. The real question is what development package 
> do
> you want to use?
>
> Or look at it this way. Migrating to vb.net because you used VB6 is a
> terrible reason. But migrating to vb.net because you want to stay with 
> MS's
> development packages is a good reason. (With MS is now dotNet or the
> Highway) But in that case why bother with VB.Net and just use VC++ and C#
> (unless funny punctuation and case-sensitivity annoys you).
>
> If you want to avoid MS on Windows then it is C++ or Java - but doing Java
> on Windows, with the limited toolset (again IMHO), is just plain making it
> tougher on yourself. It is like doing COM on Linix - sure it can be done,
> but why? Spend your days playing with tools that are "as good as ...". 
> Hell
> who wants to be *just* as good as? <g>
>
> And now here is where I really get flamed... <g>
>
> Frankly, if you want to avoid MS, then avoid Windows. It's their world and
> they call all the shots - get used to it or leave. Whine, wimper, b*tch or
> cry - at the end of the day - no one cares, especially not MS.
>
> -ralph
>
>
>
>
> 



0
Mike
2/15/2010 8:33:20 PM
"Bob O`Bob" <filterbob@yahoogroups.com> wrote in message
news:%23RkYyvnrKHA.3908@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...
> Ralph wrote:
>
> >
> > Surprisingly. Delphi most resembles the 'Visual Basic Windows
Development"
> > (vb5/6) product in terms of the IDE, ease of coding, and RAD.
> >
> > But that is a whole new language.
>
>
> Or a whole /old/ language.
>
>
> Personally, I learned to hate Pascal-the-language by the early 1980s.
> Even though it's "newer" than Basic, and came from similar roots,
> the verbosity of Basic remains far more approachable, and stays
> much more human-readable after one has forgotten one's own code.
>

Generally agree. I never cared much for Pascal myself.

It was designed as a "teaching language" and did well in that role as it
enforced better programming through its structured approach. "Structured
Programming" was all the rage back then.

However, my recommendation is not based on the "language" but that the
Delphi development IDE/Tool more closely mimics VB (Visual Basic Windows
Development) compared to alternative platforms. One uses a BASIC dialect
front-end script to its 'forms/application' engine, the other uses a PASCAL
dialect.

-ralph



0
Ralph
2/16/2010 12:01:19 AM
On Mon, 15 Feb 2010 15:33:01 GMT, bitshifter@sympatico.ca wrote:

� In another thread, someone said that compared to VB Fred, VB6 was
� pathetic.
� 
� This low attempt to turn me from my private choice of language slid
� off my back like water on a duck.
� 
� However, it did pique my curiosity.
� 
� If I had to move from VB6, which language would I choose.
� Which language would most resemble it in IDE, ease of coding and, yes,
� RAD quality.
� 
� I would accept a learning curve about the same I had to go through
� with VB6. About a hundred hours to get a simple database program
� running (from picking up the course book) and about a year or two to
� get moderatly proficient in it.
� 
� I came up with RealBasic, Delphi (though I heard it's on the way out),
� maybe C# (but I would try to keep away from M$ stuff), and not Java.
� 
� What do you think ?

Choose .NET and then pick the language that interests you the most. I prefer Visual Basic and now
primarily develop new components and web applications in .NET, however; I still support Classic
Visual Basic components and one very large Classic ASP app (which actually implements .NET
components via COM interop).

I can develop any type of application that I need using the .NET development environment.


Paul
~~~~
Microsoft MVP (Visual Basic)
0
Paul
2/16/2010 3:24:08 PM
"Paul Clement" <UseAdddressAtEndofMessage@swspectrum.com> wrote in message 
news:pndln517lk5s2decckpttchjn4u54j7fee@4ax.com...

> Choose .NET and then pick the language that
> interests you the most.

No. Don't do that. Don't restrict yourself to Micro$oft products in that 
way.

Mike



0
Mike
2/16/2010 3:47:07 PM
On 2010-02-15, Nobody <nobody@nobody.com> wrote:
><bitshifter@sympatico.ca> wrote in message 
> news:4b79674f.1840625@news.newshosting.com...
>> What do you think ?
>
> KBasic is the closest to VB6 out there, but I am not sure how many are using 
> it now. It's 100% VB6 code compatible according to the author. It's written 
> in VC 2008. It uses Qt as GUI kit and it's multi platform open source, and 
> can create EXE's without dependency on any runtime. It will probably replace 
> VB6 after many start to use it or contribute to it's development. Because it 
> uses Qt as GUI, the hard part is converting VB6 forms. I haven't installed 
> it, so I don't know how easy to develop with it.
>
> http://www.kbasic.com
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qt_%28framework%29
>
> The site seems to be down at the moment, so here is the Internet Archive 
> version:
>
> http://web.archive.org/web/20080507023915rn_1/www.kbasic.com/doku.php
>
>

Downloaded it - tried it.  It sucks.  Seriously.   While it is pretty syntax
compatible (it is with VB.NET as well), the IDE is a crap.  I spent about an
hour with it and that's about all I can take.

1)  Building forms - no drag and drop from toolbox to form.  you have to
select the control click and then select the pointer or you just keep adding
controls.  Yikes.

2)  Intelisense - sucks.  It sort of has it, in that it pops up a little
dropdown, but seems to be lacking autocomplete.  Also, it doesn't seem to work
on method parmeters - only on the methods.  In fact, over all this feature 
seems pretty worthless - more in the way then a real help.

3)  Seems to be a bit disorganized about project structure.  Also, it won't
create directories for your project - you have to manually create them first.

So...  While it might have syntax compatability going for it and it does seem
to have a large set of built in controls it doesn't seem to have anything
similar to user controls or the ability to create your own.  There does seem
to be the ability to call external libraries (declare), but as the controls
have no window handles and are not standard window controls you wouldn't be
able to do any subclassing or any of the apis that work on window handles.

Again, this just confirms - if I was going to go to a non-ms basic then I
would choose PowerBasic over anything.  While it's not 100% syntax compatible,
it's very powerfull, fast, and supports com - both servers and clients.  It
has no runtime, can use pointers, etc, etc.

-- 
Tom Shelton
0
Tom
2/16/2010 3:53:05 PM
On 2010-02-16, Mike Williams <Mike@WhiskyAndCoke.com> wrote:
> "Paul Clement" <UseAdddressAtEndofMessage@swspectrum.com> wrote in message 
> news:pndln517lk5s2decckpttchjn4u54j7fee@4ax.com...
>
>> Choose .NET and then pick the language that
>> interests you the most.
>
> No. Don't do that. Don't restrict yourself to Micro$oft products in that 
> way.
>
> Mike

Choosing .NET does not restrict you to a microsoft product or even to windows:

http://www.mono-project.com

And guess what, they even VB.NET support in mono.

Oh, and with MS's own .NET you can develop apps that will run on Windows and Mac
OS X - see Silverlight.

-- 
Tom Shelton
0
Tom
2/16/2010 3:57:37 PM
"Tom Shelton" <tom_shelton@comcastXXXXXXX.net> wrote in message 
news:e4i0hAyrKHA.4220@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...

> I would choose PowerBasic over anything.  While it's not
> 100% syntax compatible, it's very powerfull, fast, and
> supports com - both servers and clients.  It has no
> runtime, can use pointers, etc, etc.

Personally I'm sticking with VB6, but for anyone who does not wish to do so 
then I agree with you, Tom, in that they should ditch Micro$oft and move to 
something like PowerBasic (if of course they wish to stick with Basic) or to 
C++ if they do not.

Mike


0
Mike
2/16/2010 4:13:11 PM
On 2010-02-16, Mike Williams <Mike@WhiskyAndCoke.com> wrote:
> "Tom Shelton" <tom_shelton@comcastXXXXXXX.net> wrote in message 
> news:e4i0hAyrKHA.4220@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...
>
>> I would choose PowerBasic over anything.  While it's not
>> 100% syntax compatible, it's very powerfull, fast, and
>> supports com - both servers and clients.  It has no
>> runtime, can use pointers, etc, etc.
>
> Personally I'm sticking with VB6, but for anyone who does not wish to do so 
> then I agree with you, Tom, in that they should ditch Micro$oft and move to 
> something like PowerBasic (if of course they wish to stick with Basic) or to 
> C++ if they do not.
>

And personally, I'm sticking with C# (and a smattering of C++).

-- 
Tom Shelton
0
Tom
2/16/2010 4:24:12 PM
Then I would not ask it in this newsgroup if I had another goal then 
creating a troll message thread,.



<bitshifter@sympatico.ca> wrote in message 
news:4b79674f.1840625@news.newshosting.com...
> In another thread, someone said that compared to VB Fred, VB6 was
> pathetic.
>
> This low attempt to turn me from my private choice of language slid
> off my back like water on a duck.
>
> However, it did pique my curiosity.
>
> If I had to move from VB6, which language would I choose.
> Which language would most resemble it in IDE, ease of coding and, yes,
> RAD quality.
>
> I would accept a learning curve about the same I had to go through
> with VB6. About a hundred hours to get a simple database program
> running (from picking up the course book) and about a year or two to
> get moderatly proficient in it.
>
> I came up with RealBasic, Delphi (though I heard it's on the way out),
> maybe C# (but I would try to keep away from M$ stuff), and not Java.
>
> What do you think ? 

0
Cor
2/16/2010 5:41:18 PM
"Tom Shelton" <tom_shelton@comcastXXXXXXX.net> wrote in message 
news:eWpL6RyrKHA.1476@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...

> And personally, I'm sticking with C# (and a smattering of C++).

Which of course begs the question, "What are you doing in the VB6 group"? 
Actually that's a rhetorical question, because we already know the answer.

Mike



0
Mike
2/16/2010 5:49:36 PM
And certainly don't listen to Paul.  He's a MSFT envangelist who get 
compensated to push all things .Nxt, especially in groups where he knows 
it's unwanted and off topic.  That in and of itself should speak volumes.

And what did I tell you about opening the door for this bull$hit?  Eh?  If 
you want to earn a troll rep, then you're off to a great start. 


0
C
2/16/2010 6:10:38 PM
"Tom Shelton" <tom_shelton@comcastXXXXXXX.net> skrev i meddelandet 
news:e4i0hAyrKHA.4220@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...
> On 2010-02-15, Nobody <nobody@nobody.com> wrote:
>><bitshifter@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
>> news:4b79674f.1840625@news.newshosting.com...
>>> What do you think ?
>>
>> KBasic is the closest to VB6 out there, but I am not sure how many are 
>> using
>> it now. It's 100% VB6 code compatible according to the author. It's 
>> written
>> in VC 2008. It uses Qt as GUI kit and it's multi platform open source, 
>> and
>> can create EXE's without dependency on any runtime. It will probably 
>> replace
>> VB6 after many start to use it or contribute to it's development. Because 
>> it
>> uses Qt as GUI, the hard part is converting VB6 forms. I haven't 
>> installed
>> it, so I don't know how easy to develop with it.
>>
>> http://www.kbasic.com
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qt_%28framework%29
>>
>> The site seems to be down at the moment, so here is the Internet Archive
>> version:
>>
>> http://web.archive.org/web/20080507023915rn_1/www.kbasic.com/doku.php
>>
>>
>
> Downloaded it - tried it.  It sucks.  Seriously.   While it is pretty 
> syntax
> compatible (it is with VB.NET as well), the IDE is a crap.  I spent about 
> an
> hour with it and that's about all I can take.
>
> 1)  Building forms - no drag and drop from toolbox to form.  you have to
> select the control click and then select the pointer or you just keep 
> adding
> controls.  Yikes.
>
> 2)  Intelisense - sucks.  It sort of has it, in that it pops up a little
> dropdown, but seems to be lacking autocomplete.  Also, it doesn't seem to 
> work
> on method parmeters - only on the methods.  In fact, over all this feature
> seems pretty worthless - more in the way then a real help.
>
> 3)  Seems to be a bit disorganized about project structure.  Also, it 
> won't
> create directories for your project - you have to manually create them 
> first.
>
> So...  While it might have syntax compatability going for it and it does 
> seem
> to have a large set of built in controls it doesn't seem to have anything
> similar to user controls or the ability to create your own.  There does 
> seem
> to be the ability to call external libraries (declare), but as the 
> controls
> have no window handles and are not standard window controls you wouldn't 
> be
> able to do any subclassing or any of the apis that work on window handles.
>
> Again, this just confirms - if I was going to go to a non-ms basic then I
> would choose PowerBasic over anything.  While it's not 100% syntax 
> compatible,
> it's very powerfull, fast, and supports com - both servers and clients. 
> It
> has no runtime, can use pointers, etc, etc.
>
> -- 
> Tom Shelton

KBasic is not primarily aimed at windows programming. It is to be cross 
platform, Windows, Linux and MAC, the same code works on all platforms. 
There is nothing like win-apis or windows controls on the other platforms.

I have side-used it for almost a year, and it isn't perfect but very 
useable. There is a totally rewritten version comming later this year.

/Henning


0
Henning
2/16/2010 7:23:47 PM
On Tue, 16 Feb 2010 15:47:07 -0000, "Mike Williams" <Mike@WhiskyAndCoke.com> wrote:

� > Choose .NET and then pick the language that
� > interests you the most.
� 
� No. Don't do that. Don't restrict yourself to Micro$oft products in that 
� way.
� 
� Mike
� 

Restrict? If you want to serve an additional 2% of the PC OS market you could always use Mono.


Paul
~~~~
Microsoft MVP (Visual Basic)
0
Paul
2/16/2010 8:39:21 PM
On Tue, 16 Feb 2010 13:10:38 -0500, "C. Kevin Provance" <*@*.*> wrote:

� And certainly don't listen to Paul.  He's a MSFT envangelist who get 
� compensated to push all things .Nxt, especially in groups where he knows 
� it's unwanted and off topic.  That in and of itself should speak volumes.
� 
� And what did I tell you about opening the door for this bull$hit?  Eh?  If 
� you want to earn a troll rep, then you're off to a great start. 
� 

LOL! You guys are so predictable it's hilarious.


Paul
~~~~
Microsoft MVP (Visual Basic)
0
Paul
2/16/2010 8:40:53 PM
"Paul Clement" <UseAdddressAtEndofMessage@swspectrum.com> wrote in message 
news:uj0mn5hch93jg216qjgknnd6ed21i40ip0@4ax.com...


> LOL! You guys are so predictable it's hilarious.

.. . . and you think you're not! Sheesh! In your case MVP stands for 
Micro$oft Valuable Puppet.

Mike



0
Mike
2/16/2010 8:47:36 PM
I did not want to start a troll thread, I really wanted to have a
direction to look in from those in the know still connected to the
market trends.

I've been pensionned for about two year and am a bit out of contact
with the herd.

And I do see the day I would have to move.

On Tue, 16 Feb 2010 18:41:18 +0100, "Cor Ligthert[MVP]"
<Notmyfirstname@planet.nl> wrote:

>Then I would not ask it in this newsgroup if I had another goal then 
>creating a troll message thread,.

><bitshifter@sympatico.ca> wrote in message 
>news:4b79674f.1840625@news.newshosting.com...
....
>> What do you think ? 
>

0
bitshifter
2/16/2010 11:02:45 PM
"Mike Williams" <Mike@WhiskyAndCoke.com> wrote in message 
news:ODvHNl0rKHA.732@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...
| "Paul Clement" <UseAdddressAtEndofMessage@swspectrum.com> wrote in message
| news:uj0mn5hch93jg216qjgknnd6ed21i40ip0@4ax.com...
|
|
| > LOL! You guys are so predictable it's hilarious.
|
| . . . and you think you're not! Sheesh! In your case MVP stands for
| Micro$oft Valuable Puppet.

Seconded. 


0
C
2/16/2010 11:40:02 PM
<bitshifter@sympatico.ca> wrote in message 
news:4b7b2353.27319812@news.newshosting.com...
|I did not want to start a troll thread, I really wanted to have a
| direction to look in from those in the know still connected to the
| market trends.

Then you should have Googled the fvcking query.

| I've been pensionned for about two year and am a bit out of contact
| with the herd.

@@

| And I do see the day I would have to move.

Start now, starting with this group if you insist on trolling.  We have 
enough of them as it is. 


0
C
2/16/2010 11:41:30 PM
"C. Kevin Provance" <*@*.*> skrev i meddelandet 
news:%23YkURG2rKHA.4220@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...
>
> <bitshifter@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> news:4b7b2353.27319812@news.newshosting.com...
> |I did not want to start a troll thread, I really wanted to have a
> | direction to look in from those in the know still connected to the
> | market trends.
>
> Then you should have Googled the fvcking query.
>
> | I've been pensionned for about two year and am a bit out of contact
> | with the herd.
>
> @@
>
> | And I do see the day I would have to move.
>
> Start now, starting with this group if you insist on trolling.  We have
> enough of them as it is.
>
>

Since he's not been a regular for the last two years, I bet his intentions 
were not what they (as usual) turned into.

/Henning


0
Henning
2/17/2010 1:19:57 AM
"Henning" <computer_hero@coldmail.com> wrote in message 
news:ODnOU92rKHA.3536@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...
|
| Since he's not been a regular for the last two years, I bet his intentions
| were not what they (as usual) turned into.
|
| /Henning

Maybe, maybe not.  I don't know.  Someone has to be a hardass to nip these 
things in the bud.  This should effectively prevent a repeat. 


0
C
2/17/2010 1:41:40 AM
"C. Kevin Provance" <*@*.*> skrev i meddelandet 
news:upIzaJ3rKHA.3536@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...
>
> "Henning" <computer_hero@coldmail.com> wrote in message
> news:ODnOU92rKHA.3536@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...
> |
> | Since he's not been a regular for the last two years, I bet his 
> intentions
> | were not what they (as usual) turned into.
> |
> | /Henning
>
> Maybe, maybe not.  I don't know.  Someone has to be a hardass to nip these
> things in the bud.  This should effectively prevent a repeat.
>
>

That is if posters care to search/read before posting ;)

/Henning


0
Henning
2/17/2010 1:57:50 AM
On Tue, 16 Feb 2010 20:47:36 -0000, "Mike Williams" <Mike@WhiskyAndCoke.com> wrote:


� > LOL! You guys are so predictable it's hilarious.
� 
� . . . and you think you're not! Sheesh! In your case MVP stands for 
� Micro$oft Valuable Puppet.
� 
� Mike

Uh, sorry but I'm not chasing people around, monitoring their posts in order to make certain they
post content I like and then labeling them when they don't.

Not much of an intellectual discussion on your part, but I do appreciate the fact that you read my
posts. ;-)


Paul
~~~~
Microsoft MVP (Visual Basic)
0
Paul
2/17/2010 2:28:00 PM
On Tue, 16 Feb 2010 20:41:40 -0500, "C. Kevin Provance" <*@*.*> wrote:

� | Since he's not been a regular for the last two years, I bet his intentions
� | were not what they (as usual) turned into.
� |
� | /Henning
� 
� Maybe, maybe not.  I don't know.  Someone has to be a hardass to nip these 
� things in the bud.  This should effectively prevent a repeat. 
� 

Not your job and I'm not sure why you have to be repeatedly reminded of that.


Paul
~~~~
Microsoft MVP (Visual Basic)
0
Paul
2/17/2010 2:29:36 PM
"Paul Clement" <UseAdddressAtEndofMessage@swspectrum.com> wrote in message 
news:8otnn5hqukrd60pp5d9hivjt1mbb71pp4u@4ax.com...

> Not much of an intellectual discussion on your part

Well there certainly isn't on yours.

> but I do appreciate the fact that you read my
> posts. ;-)

And I appreciate the fact that you read mine. You certainly are an obedient 
little puppet. Hopefully some of what I and others say will filter back to 
the people who are pulling your strings.

Mike



0
Mike
2/17/2010 2:55:13 PM
"Paul Clement" <UseAdddressAtEndofMessage@swspectrum.com> wrote in message 
news:m8vnn5hsu5a1gmi4jpe6gg6u2u8j8o34vc@4ax.com...

> � Maybe, maybe not.  I don't know.  Someone has to
> � be a hardass to nip these things in the bud.
>
> Not your job and I'm not sure why you have
> to be repeatedly reminded of that.

It's not your job to tell him it's not his job.

Mike


0
Mike
2/17/2010 2:59:01 PM
On Wed, 17 Feb 2010 14:55:13 -0000, "Mike Williams" <Mike@WhiskyAndCoke.com> wrote:

� 
� > Not much of an intellectual discussion on your part
� 
� Well there certainly isn't on yours.
� 
� > but I do appreciate the fact that you read my
� > posts. ;-)
� 
� And I appreciate the fact that you read mine. You certainly are an obedient 
� little puppet. Hopefully some of what I and others say will filter back to 
� the people who are pulling your strings.
� 
� Mike

Sorry, no strings attached, so good luck with that. ;-)

Try spending more time on the topic than focusing on me (if you can).


Paul
~~~~
Microsoft MVP (Visual Basic)
0
Paul
2/17/2010 5:28:39 PM
On Wed, 17 Feb 2010 14:59:01 -0000, "Mike Williams" <Mike@WhiskyAndCoke.com> wrote:

� > � Maybe, maybe not.  I don't know.  Someone has to
� > � be a hardass to nip these things in the bud.
� >
� > Not your job and I'm not sure why you have
� > to be repeatedly reminded of that.
� 
� It's not your job to tell him it's not his job.
� 
� Mike
� 

Reminding someone of a policy is not a job. As a matter of fact you may want to remind him as well. 


Paul
~~~~
Microsoft MVP (Visual Basic)
0
Paul
2/17/2010 5:51:18 PM
"Paul Clement" <UseAdddressAtEndofMessage@swspectrum.com> wrote in message 
news:pq9on59329t0v9rbt4vuvbss7hs783agen@4ax.com...

> Reminding someone of a policy is not a job.

Well it's not /your/ job Paul, that's for sure! Besides, you did not remind 
someone of a policy. Stop making things up. You told someone it was not his 
job to perform a certain specific task, and it is not your job to tell 
people such things. None of us here have a"job" that other members of the 
group have tasked them with performing and nobody suggested they had, until 
you came along and suggested it yourself. You are a hypocrite Paul. If you 
feel, as you obviously do, that you are yourself at liberty to post 
admonishments then please refrain from berating others who you personally 
feel have done the same. Stop being a hypocrite.

Mike

0
Mike
2/17/2010 7:26:06 PM
| Not your job and I'm not sure why you have to be repeatedly reminded of 
that.

Yeah, it is.  You going to stop me?

Good luck with that. 


0
C
2/17/2010 7:47:52 PM
Paul Clement wrote:
> Not much of an intellectual discussion on your part, 

Presumably an impossibility when dealing with people who refuse to 
display intellectual honesty.

-- 
..NET: It's About Trust!
http://vfred.mvps.org


0
Karl
2/17/2010 8:58:03 PM
On Wed, 17 Feb 2010 02:19:57 +0100, "Henning"
<computer_hero@coldmail.com> wrote:

>
>"C. Kevin Provance" <*@*.*> skrev i meddelandet 
>news:%23YkURG2rKHA.4220@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...
>>
>> <bitshifter@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
>> news:4b7b2353.27319812@news.newshosting.com...
>> |I did not want to start a troll thread, I really wanted to have a
>> | direction to look in from those in the know still connected to the
>> | market trends.
>>
>> Then you should have Googled the fvcking query.
>>
>> | I've been pensionned for about two year and am a bit out of contact
>> | with the herd.
>>
>> @@
>>
>> | And I do see the day I would have to move.
>>
>> Start now, starting with this group if you insist on trolling.  We have
>> enough of them as it is.
>>
>>
>
>Since he's not been a regular for the last two years, I bet his intentions 
>were not what they (as usual) turned into.

Thanks, best anti-troll I've read in a long time.

Some people do have too thin skins, methink.

Beside, I did get my answers. Thanks to all on-topic posters out
there.
0
bitshifter
2/18/2010 12:29:49 AM
On Wed, 17 Feb 2010 12:58:03 -0800, Karl E. Peterson <karl@exmvps.org> wrote:

� Paul Clement wrote:
� > Not much of an intellectual discussion on your part, 
� 
� Presumably an impossibility when dealing with people who refuse to 
� display intellectual honesty.

What was that you said in a recent post? "A fact not in evidence." Certainly not provided.


Paul
~~~~
Microsoft MVP (Visual Basic)
0
Paul
2/18/2010 1:52:47 PM
On Wed, 17 Feb 2010 19:26:06 -0000, "Mike Williams" <Mike@WhiskyAndCoke.com> wrote:

� > Reminding someone of a policy is not a job.
� 
� Well it's not /your/ job Paul, that's for sure! Besides, you did not remind 
� someone of a policy. Stop making things up. You told someone it was not his 
� job to perform a certain specific task, and it is not your job to tell 
� people such things. None of us here have a"job" that other members of the 
� group have tasked them with performing and nobody suggested they had, until 
� you came along and suggested it yourself. You are a hypocrite Paul. If you 
� feel, as you obviously do, that you are yourself at liberty to post 
� admonishments then please refrain from berating others who you personally 
� feel have done the same. Stop being a hypocrite.

Reminding someone that there is no self moderation is not self moderation.

But if you believe what you say, which naturally means you know there is no self moderation, and
claim it is what I am doing, then why are you doing it? Or are you a hypocrite by your own faulty
reasoning? ;-)

But just to remind you as well, it's not your job to tell me what my job is or isn't anyway. ;-)


Paul
~~~~
Microsoft MVP (Visual Basic)
0
Paul
2/18/2010 2:38:54 PM
On Wed, 17 Feb 2010 14:47:52 -0500, "C. Kevin Provance" <*@*.*> wrote:

� | Not your job and I'm not sure why you have to be repeatedly reminded of 
� that.
� 
� Yeah, it is.  You going to stop me?

Now why would I want to do that? The fact that your are adamant enough to continue is sufficient
amusement for me.
 
Otherwise, the self-moderation policy was simply informational. I'm not your keeper.


Paul
~~~~
Microsoft MVP (Visual Basic)
0
Paul
2/18/2010 2:50:24 PM
Paul Clement wrote:
> On Wed, 17 Feb 2010 12:58:03 -0800, Karl E. Peterson <karl@exmvps.org> wrote:
>
> � Paul Clement wrote:
> � > Not much of an intellectual discussion on your part, 
> � 
> � Presumably an impossibility when dealing with people who refuse to 
> � display intellectual honesty.
>
> What was that you said in a recent post?  "A fact not in evidence." 

Yes, that's what I'm saying.  Thanks for the amplification.  Hopefully, 
one of these days you *will* offer evidence of your intellectual 
honesty.  Presumably, you only act like this online, because it would 
sure make life a living he11 offline.

-- 
..NET: It's About Trust!
http://vfred.mvps.org


0
Karl
2/18/2010 6:09:23 PM
On Thu, 18 Feb 2010 10:09:23 -0800, Karl E. Peterson <karl@exmvps.org> wrote:

� Paul Clement wrote:
� > On Wed, 17 Feb 2010 12:58:03 -0800, Karl E. Peterson <karl@exmvps.org> wrote:
� >
� > � Paul Clement wrote:
� > � > Not much of an intellectual discussion on your part, 
� > � 
� > � Presumably an impossibility when dealing with people who refuse to 
� > � display intellectual honesty.
� >
� > What was that you said in a recent post?  "A fact not in evidence." 
� 
� Yes, that's what I'm saying.  Thanks for the amplification.  Hopefully, 
� one of these days you *will* offer evidence of your intellectual 
� honesty.  Presumably, you only act like this online, because it would 
� sure make life a living he11 offline.

Well you've met me off line so you should know, but that's beside the point. We may disagree with
one another but that doesn't infer intellectual dishonesty on either part, however; if you are going
to infer that on my part, the burden is not upon me to disprove a statement that you are unwilling
to substantiate.

There is no intellectual honesty in attacking someone and calling them names in a failed attempt to
marginalize them. It simply means that you don't have anything relevant to contribute.


Paul
~~~~
Microsoft MVP (Visual Basic)
0
Paul
2/18/2010 8:28:13 PM
Paul Clement wrote:
> Karl E. Peterson <karl@exmvps.org> wrote:
> � Yes, that's what I'm saying.  Thanks for the amplification.  Hopefully, 
> � one of these days you *will* offer evidence of your intellectual 
> � honesty.  Presumably, you only act like this online, because it would 
> � sure make life a living he11 offline.
>
> Well you've met me off line so you should know, but that's beside the point. 

Right.  Anakin seemed like an exceptionally nice little kid, too. ;-)

> We may disagree with one another but that doesn't infer intellectual 
> dishonesty on either part, however; if you are going to infer that on my 
> part, the burden is not upon me to disprove a statement that you are 
> unwilling to substantiate.
>
> There is no intellectual honesty in attacking someone and calling them names 
> in a failed attempt to marginalize them. It simply means that you don't have 
> anything relevant to contribute.

Whatever.  I leave it to the peanut gallery to be my judge/jury.

-- 
..NET: It's About Trust!
http://vfred.mvps.org


0
Karl
2/18/2010 9:06:12 PM
Paul Clement wrote:
> Karl E. Peterson <karl@exmvps.org> wrote:
> � Yes, that's what I'm saying.  Thanks for the amplification.  Hopefully, 
> � one of these days you *will* offer evidence of your intellectual 
> � honesty.  Presumably, you only act like this online, because it would 
> � sure make life a living he11 offline.
>
> Well you've met me off line so you should know, but that's beside the point. 

Right.  Anakin seemed like an exceptionally nice little kid, too. ;-)

> We may disagree with one another but that doesn't infer intellectual 
> dishonesty on either part, however; if you are going to infer that on my 
> part, the burden is not upon me to disprove a statement that you are 
> unwilling to substantiate.
>
> There is no intellectual honesty in attacking someone and calling them names 
> in a failed attempt to marginalize them. It simply means that you don't have 
> anything relevant to contribute.

Whatever.  I leave it to the peanut gallery to be my judge/jury.

-- 
..NET: It's About Trust!
http://vfred.mvps.org


0
Karl
2/18/2010 9:18:18 PM
"sloan" <sloan@ipass.net> wrote:

>HOWEVER, I have found benefit from making a "clean break", and instead of 
>accidentally bringing any bad vb6 practices with you, going to C# is my 
>suggestion.

My understanding is that there are fundamental differences between VB6
and VB.Net such as the definitions of int and long.   Thus things can
really cause you problems.

>Good luck.  It's 2010.  It's time to move forward.

Not if it's a .Net product.  My app depends on drag and drop
deployment with no install.   .Net solutions don't allow for that.

Tony
-- 
Tony Toews, Microsoft Access MVP
Tony's Main MS Access pages - http://www.granite.ab.ca/accsmstr.htm
Tony's Microsoft Access Blog - http://msmvps.com/blogs/access/
For a convenient utility to keep your users FEs and other files 
  updated see http://www.autofeupdater.com/
Granite Fleet Manager http://www.granitefleet.com/
0
Tony
2/18/2010 9:39:24 PM
On Thu, 18 Feb 2010 14:39:24 -0700, "Tony Toews [MVP]" <ttoews@telusplanet.net> wrote:

� >Good luck.  It's 2010.  It's time to move forward.
� 
� Not if it's a .Net product.  My app depends on drag and drop
� deployment with no install.   .Net solutions don't allow for that.
� 
� Tony

That might be true for XP systems if the .NET Framework is not installed but it isn't true of Vista
and Windows 7 where it comes pre-installed.

Otherwise, for XP it's a one-time deployment.


Paul
~~~~
Microsoft MVP (Visual Basic)
0
Paul
2/19/2010 1:25:18 PM
"Paul Clement" <UseAdddressAtEndofMessage@swspectrum.com> wrote in message 
news:5v3tn5hsbjg2jtg1h2rjkkk4b7im7skvop@4ax.com...

> � Not if it's a .Net product.  My app depends on drag and drop
> � deployment with no install.   .Net solutions don't allow for that.
>
> for XP it's a one-time deployment.

Last time I checked, "one" was more than "none"!

Mike



0
Mike
2/19/2010 3:06:08 PM
On 2010-02-19, Mike Williams <Mike@WhiskyAndCoke.com> wrote:
> "Paul Clement" <UseAdddressAtEndofMessage@swspectrum.com> wrote in message 
> news:5v3tn5hsbjg2jtg1h2rjkkk4b7im7skvop@4ax.com...
>
>> � Not if it's a .Net product.  My app depends on drag and drop
>> � deployment with no install.   .Net solutions don't allow for that.
>>
>> for XP it's a one-time deployment.
>
> Last time I checked, "one" was more than "none"!

Definately.  And since most buisness are still using XP, then Vista or 7,
there is definately a possibility that you might have to install it...

-- 
Tom Shelton
0
Tom
2/19/2010 3:45:57 PM
Tom Shelton wrote:
> On 2010-02-19, Mike Williams <Mike@WhiskyAndCoke.com> wrote:
>> "Paul Clement" <UseAdddressAtEndofMessage@swspectrum.com> wrote in message 
>> news:5v3tn5hsbjg2jtg1h2rjkkk4b7im7skvop@4ax.com...
>> 
>>> � Not if it's a .Net product.  My app depends on drag and drop
>>> � deployment with no install.   .Net solutions don't allow for that.
>>> 
>>> for XP it's a one-time deployment.
>> 
>> Last time I checked, "one" was more than "none"!
>
> Definately.  And since most buisness are still using XP, then Vista or 7,
> there is definately a possibility that you might have to install it...

And even in Vista and 7, there's no certainty that the flamework 
version your app is dependent upon is there, right?

-- 
..NET: It's About Trust!
http://vfred.mvps.org


0
Karl
2/19/2010 7:21:34 PM
On 2010-02-19, Karl E  Peterson <karl@exmvps.org> wrote:
> Tom Shelton wrote:
>> On 2010-02-19, Mike Williams <Mike@WhiskyAndCoke.com> wrote:
>>> "Paul Clement" <UseAdddressAtEndofMessage@swspectrum.com> wrote in message 
>>> news:5v3tn5hsbjg2jtg1h2rjkkk4b7im7skvop@4ax.com...
>>> 
>>>> � Not if it's a .Net product.  My app depends on drag and drop
>>>> � deployment with no install.   .Net solutions don't allow for that.
>>>> 
>>>> for XP it's a one-time deployment.
>>> 
>>> Last time I checked, "one" was more than "none"!
>>
>> Definately.  And since most buisness are still using XP, then Vista or 7,
>> there is definately a possibility that you might have to install it...
>
> And even in Vista and 7, there's no certainty that the flamework 
> version your app is dependent upon is there, right?
>

Vista has 3.0 by default.  So, you can just target 2.0 or 3.0 and your fine.
If you target 3.5, then you MAY have to install there as well.

-- 
Tom Shelton
0
Tom
2/19/2010 7:29:18 PM
On Fri, 19 Feb 2010 07:45:57 -0800, Tom Shelton <tom_shelton@comcastXXXXXXX.net> wrote:

� >> � Not if it's a .Net product.  My app depends on drag and drop
� >> � deployment with no install.   .Net solutions don't allow for that.
� >>
� >> for XP it's a one-time deployment.
� >
� > Last time I checked, "one" was more than "none"!
� 
� Definately.  And since most buisness are still using XP, then Vista or 7,
� there is definately a possibility that you might have to install it...

Or deploy it with other Windows Updates as many companies do.


Paul
~~~~
Microsoft MVP (Visual Basic)
0
Paul
2/19/2010 8:23:33 PM
On 2010-02-19, Paul Clement <UseAdddressAtEndofMessage@swspectrum.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 19 Feb 2010 07:45:57 -0800, Tom Shelton <tom_shelton@comcastXXXXXXX.net> wrote:
>
> � >> � Not if it's a .Net product.  My app depends on drag and drop
> � >> � deployment with no install.   .Net solutions don't allow for that.
> � >>
> � >> for XP it's a one-time deployment.
> � >
> � > Last time I checked, "one" was more than "none"!
> � 
> � Definately.  And since most buisness are still using XP, then Vista or 7,
> � there is definately a possibility that you might have to install it...
>
> Or deploy it with other Windows Updates as many companies do.

Yes - that is an option.  If the company it policy allows it.  I've yet to run
into one that doesn't...  But you never know :)

-- 
Tom Shelton
0
Tom
2/19/2010 9:25:27 PM
Paul Clement wrote:
> On Fri, 19 Feb 2010 07:45:57 -0800, Tom Shelton 
> <tom_shelton@comcastXXXXXXX.net> wrote:
>
> � >> � Not if it's a .Net product.  My app depends on drag and drop
> � >> � deployment with no install.   .Net solutions don't allow for that.
> � >>
> � >> for XP it's a one-time deployment.
> � >
> � > Last time I checked, "one" was more than "none"!
> � 
> � Definately.  And since most buisness are still using XP, then Vista or 7,
> � there is definately a possibility that you might have to install it...
>
> Or deploy it with other Windows Updates as many companies do.

There's that intellectual dishonesty I was talking about.  Sure didn't 
take long for a relevant example.  There is no functional difference, 
in the end, between "install" and "deploy" - HTH!

-- 
..NET: It's About Trust!
http://vfred.mvps.org


0
Karl
2/19/2010 11:35:17 PM
"Paul Clement" <UseAdddressAtEndofMessage@swspectrum.com> wrote in message 
news:5v3tn5hsbjg2jtg1h2rjkkk4b7im7skvop@4ax.com...
| On Thu, 18 Feb 2010 14:39:24 -0700, "Tony Toews [MVP]" 
<ttoews@telusplanet.net> wrote:
|
| � >Good luck.  It's 2010.  It's time to move forward.
| �
| � Not if it's a .Net product.  My app depends on drag and drop
| � deployment with no install.   .Net solutions don't allow for that.
| �
| � Tony
|
| That might be true for XP systems if the .NET Framework is not installed 
but it isn't true of Vista
| and Windows 7 where it comes pre-installed.
|
| Otherwise, for XP it's a one-time deployment.
|

Wrong.  FUD.  Off topic.  Take it somewhere else evangelist. 


0
C
2/20/2010 1:57:58 AM
> > Or deploy it with other Windows Updates as many companies do.
>
> There's that intellectual dishonesty I was talking about.  Sure didn't
> take long for a relevant example.  There is no functional difference,
> in the end, between "install" and "deploy" - HTH!
>

  I was thinking of it as a very small fig leaf
covering some very large .Net naughty bits. :)


0
mayayana
2/20/2010 3:39:10 AM
Paul Clement <UseAdddressAtEndofMessage@swspectrum.com> wrote:

>� Not if it's a .Net product.  My app depends on drag and drop
>� deployment with no install.   .Net solutions don't allow for that.
>� 
>� Tony
>
>That might be true for XP systems if the .NET Framework is not installed but it isn't true of Vista
>and Windows 7 where it comes pre-installed.
>
>Otherwise, for XP it's a one-time deployment.

Some folks are still running my app on Windows 2000.  I just had a
simple request for an Access 97 specific feature.  (Which only took an
hour to add.)

What about all the versioning problems?  Or are there none with the
..NET Framework?

Tony
-- 
Tony Toews, Microsoft Access MVP
Tony's Main MS Access pages - http://www.granite.ab.ca/accsmstr.htm
Tony's Microsoft Access Blog - http://msmvps.com/blogs/access/
For a convenient utility to keep your users FEs and other files 
  updated see http://www.autofeupdater.com/
Granite Fleet Manager http://www.granitefleet.com/
0
Tony
2/21/2010 11:02:15 PM
On Fri, 19 Feb 2010 15:35:17 -0800, Karl E. Peterson <karl@exmvps.org> wrote:

� > � >> � Not if it's a .Net product.  My app depends on drag and drop
� > � >> � deployment with no install.   .Net solutions don't allow for that.
� > � >>
� > � >> for XP it's a one-time deployment.
� > � >
� > � > Last time I checked, "one" was more than "none"!
� > � 
� > � Definately.  And since most buisness are still using XP, then Vista or 7,
� > � there is definately a possibility that you might have to install it...
� >
� > Or deploy it with other Windows Updates as many companies do.
� 
� There's that intellectual dishonesty I was talking about.  Sure didn't 
� take long for a relevant example.  There is no functional difference, 
� in the end, between "install" and "deploy" - HTH!

Install, deploy, roll-out. I don't care which word or phrase you use because it doesn't change the
meaning of my statement. Nitpicking are you?


Paul
~~~~
Microsoft MVP (Visual Basic)
0
Paul
2/22/2010 4:17:13 PM
On Sun, 21 Feb 2010 16:02:15 -0700, "Tony Toews [MVP]" <ttoews@telusplanet.net> wrote:

� Paul Clement <UseAdddressAtEndofMessage@swspectrum.com> wrote:
� 
� >� Not if it's a .Net product.  My app depends on drag and drop
� >� deployment with no install.   .Net solutions don't allow for that.
� >� 
� >� Tony
� >
� >That might be true for XP systems if the .NET Framework is not installed but it isn't true of Vista
� >and Windows 7 where it comes pre-installed.
� >
� >Otherwise, for XP it's a one-time deployment.
� 
� Some folks are still running my app on Windows 2000.  I just had a
� simple request for an Access 97 specific feature.  (Which only took an
� hour to add.)
� 
� What about all the versioning problems?  Or are there none with the
� .NET Framework?
� 
� Tony

With respect to versioning it's generally only an issue if you have compiled/targeted your app for a
version of the framework that is newer than what is installed.

We run some 1.1 (VS 2003) components with 2.0 (VS 2005) apps without any issues.


Paul
~~~~
Microsoft MVP (Visual Basic)
0
Paul
2/22/2010 4:35:06 PM
Paul,

If somebody starts giving names, then he shows he/she has not any argument 
anymore and he/she has lost the debate.

Has always been true, therefore you see this so often done by kids.

Cor

"Paul Clement" <UseAdddressAtEndofMessage@swspectrum.com> wrote in message 
news:l47rn591p7i56eombup4ekph4i9icefbhn@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 18 Feb 2010 10:09:23 -0800, Karl E. Peterson <karl@exmvps.org> 
> wrote:
>
> � Paul Clement wrote:
> � > On Wed, 17 Feb 2010 12:58:03 -0800, Karl E. Peterson <karl@exmvps.org> 
> wrote:
> � >
> � > � Paul Clement wrote:
> � > � > Not much of an intellectual discussion on your part,
> � > �
> � > � Presumably an impossibility when dealing with people who refuse to
> � > � display intellectual honesty.
> � >
> � > What was that you said in a recent post?  "A fact not in evidence."
> �
> � Yes, that's what I'm saying.  Thanks for the amplification.  Hopefully,
> � one of these days you *will* offer evidence of your intellectual
> � honesty.  Presumably, you only act like this online, because it would
> � sure make life a living he11 offline.
>
> Well you've met me off line so you should know, but that's beside the 
> point. We may disagree with
> one another but that doesn't infer intellectual dishonesty on either part, 
> however; if you are going
> to infer that on my part, the burden is not upon me to disprove a 
> statement that you are unwilling
> to substantiate.
>
> There is no intellectual honesty in attacking someone and calling them 
> names in a failed attempt to
> marginalize them. It simply means that you don't have anything relevant to 
> contribute.
>
>
> Paul
> ~~~~
> Microsoft MVP (Visual Basic) 

0
Cor
2/22/2010 6:07:44 PM
Paul Clement wrote:
> On Fri, 19 Feb 2010 15:35:17 -0800, Karl E. Peterson <karl@exmvps.org> wrote:
>
> � > � >> � Not if it's a .Net product.  My app depends on drag and drop
> � > � >> � deployment with no install.   .Net solutions don't allow for that.
> � > � >>
> � > � >> for XP it's a one-time deployment.
> � > � >
> � > � > Last time I checked, "one" was more than "none"!
> � > � 
> � > � Definately.  And since most buisness are still using XP, then Vista or 
> 7, � > � there is definately a possibility that you might have to install 
> it... � >
> � > Or deploy it with other Windows Updates as many companies do.
> � 
> � There's that intellectual dishonesty I was talking about.  Sure didn't 
> � take long for a relevant example.  There is no functional difference, 
> � in the end, between "install" and "deploy" - HTH!
>
> Install, deploy, roll-out. I don't care which word or phrase you use because 
> it doesn't change the meaning of my statement.

That's right.  There's absolutely no difference.  And yet, your need to 
repeat what was just said, but using a different word, *implies* there 
is a very distinct difference!  Thank you for agreeing you were being 
intellectually dishonest there.

> Nitpicking are you?

Shall we ask the peanut gallery?

-- 
..NET: It's About Trust!
http://vfred.mvps.org


0
Karl
2/22/2010 7:12:32 PM
On 2010-02-22, Paul Clement <UseAdddressAtEndofMessage@swspectrum.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 21 Feb 2010 16:02:15 -0700, "Tony Toews [MVP]" <ttoews@telusplanet.net> wrote:
>
> � Paul Clement <UseAdddressAtEndofMessage@swspectrum.com> wrote:
> � 
> � >� Not if it's a .Net product.  My app depends on drag and drop
> � >� deployment with no install.   .Net solutions don't allow for that.
> � >� 
> � >� Tony
> � >
> � >That might be true for XP systems if the .NET Framework is not installed but it isn't true of Vista
> � >and Windows 7 where it comes pre-installed.
> � >
> � >Otherwise, for XP it's a one-time deployment.
> � 
> � Some folks are still running my app on Windows 2000.  I just had a
> � simple request for an Access 97 specific feature.  (Which only took an
> � hour to add.)
> � 
> � What about all the versioning problems?  Or are there none with the
> � .NET Framework?
> � 
> � Tony
>
> With respect to versioning it's generally only an issue if you have compiled/targeted your app for a
> version of the framework that is newer than what is installed.
>

That wasn't always an issue either...  I had 1.1 code that ran on the 1.0
runtime.  I just had to be carefull not to use stuff that got introduced in
1.1.

-- 
Tom Shelton
0
Tom
2/22/2010 7:32:19 PM
On Mon, 22 Feb 2010 11:12:32 -0800, Karl E. Peterson <karl@exmvps.org> wrote:

� > � > � Definately.  And since most buisness are still using XP, then Vista or 
� > 7, � > � there is definately a possibility that you might have to install 
� > it... � >
� > � > Or deploy it with other Windows Updates as many companies do.
� > � 
� > � There's that intellectual dishonesty I was talking about.  Sure didn't 
� > � take long for a relevant example.  There is no functional difference, 
� > � in the end, between "install" and "deploy" - HTH!
� >
� > Install, deploy, roll-out. I don't care which word or phrase you use because 
� > it doesn't change the meaning of my statement.
� 
� That's right.  There's absolutely no difference.  And yet, your need to 
� repeat what was just said, but using a different word, *implies* there 
� is a very distinct difference!  Thank you for agreeing you were being 
� intellectually dishonest there.

I didn't repeat anything but merely suggested that the Framework could be installed with Windows
Updates, which is rather typical of most organizations running Windows operating systems.

So what am I being intellectually dishonest about, or are you just being dishonest by making stuff
up?


Paul
~~~~
Microsoft MVP (Visual Basic)
0
Paul
2/23/2010 5:02:56 PM
On Mon, 22 Feb 2010 11:32:19 -0800, Tom Shelton <tom_shelton@comcastXXXXXXX.net> wrote:

� > � >� Not if it's a .Net product.  My app depends on drag and drop
� > � >� deployment with no install.   .Net solutions don't allow for that.
� > � >� 
� > � >� Tony
� > � >
� > � >That might be true for XP systems if the .NET Framework is not installed but it isn't true of Vista
� > � >and Windows 7 where it comes pre-installed.
� > � >
� > � >Otherwise, for XP it's a one-time deployment.
� > � 
� > � Some folks are still running my app on Windows 2000.  I just had a
� > � simple request for an Access 97 specific feature.  (Which only took an
� > � hour to add.)
� > � 
� > � What about all the versioning problems?  Or are there none with the
� > � .NET Framework?
� > � 
� > � Tony
� >
� > With respect to versioning it's generally only an issue if you have compiled/targeted your app for a
� > version of the framework that is newer than what is installed.
� >
� 
� That wasn't always an issue either...  I had 1.1 code that ran on the 1.0
� runtime.  I just had to be carefull not to use stuff that got introduced in
� 1.1.

Right, but with respect to the app you would still need to compile/target it for 1.0.


Paul
~~~~
Microsoft MVP (Visual Basic)
0
Paul
2/23/2010 5:09:35 PM
Paul Clement wrote:
> On Mon, 22 Feb 2010 11:12:32 -0800, Karl E. Peterson <karl@exmvps.org> wrote:
>
> � > � > � Definately.  And since most buisness are still using XP, then Vista 
> or  � > 7, � > � there is definately a possibility that you might have to 
> install  � > it... � >
> � > � > Or deploy it with other Windows Updates as many companies do.
> � > � 
> � > � There's that intellectual dishonesty I was talking about.  Sure didn't 
> � > � take long for a relevant example.  There is no functional difference, 
> � > � in the end, between "install" and "deploy" - HTH!
> � >
> � > Install, deploy, roll-out. I don't care which word or phrase you use 
> because  � > it doesn't change the meaning of my statement.
> � 
> � That's right.  There's absolutely no difference.  And yet, your need to 
> � repeat what was just said, but using a different word, *implies* there 
> � is a very distinct difference!  Thank you for agreeing you were being 
> � intellectually dishonest there.
>
> I didn't repeat anything but merely suggested that the Framework could be 
> installed with Windows Updates, which is rather typical of most organizations 
> running Windows operating systems.

So now you're saying there *is* a difference between install and 
deploy.

> So what am I being intellectually dishonest about?

QED.

-- 
..NET: It's About Trust!
http://vfred.mvps.org


0
Karl
2/23/2010 5:23:38 PM
On 2010-02-23, Paul Clement <UseAdddressAtEndofMessage@swspectrum.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 22 Feb 2010 11:32:19 -0800, Tom Shelton <tom_shelton@comcastXXXXXXX.net> wrote:
>
> � > � >� Not if it's a .Net product.  My app depends on drag and drop
> � > � >� deployment with no install.   .Net solutions don't allow for that.
> � > � >� 
> � > � >� Tony
> � > � >
> � > � >That might be true for XP systems if the .NET Framework is not installed but it isn't true of Vista
> � > � >and Windows 7 where it comes pre-installed.
> � > � >
> � > � >Otherwise, for XP it's a one-time deployment.
> � > � 
> � > � Some folks are still running my app on Windows 2000.  I just had a
> � > � simple request for an Access 97 specific feature.  (Which only took an
> � > � hour to add.)
> � > � 
> � > � What about all the versioning problems?  Or are there none with the
> � > � .NET Framework?
> � > � 
> � > � Tony
> � >
> � > With respect to versioning it's generally only an issue if you have compiled/targeted your app for a
> � > version of the framework that is newer than what is installed.
> � >
> � 
> � That wasn't always an issue either...  I had 1.1 code that ran on the 1.0
> � runtime.  I just had to be carefull not to use stuff that got introduced in
> � 1.1.
>
> Right, but with respect to the app you would still need to compile/target it for 1.0.
>

No.  You would compile in VS2003 and run on the 1.0 framework.  You just had
to setup the config file to allow the older runtime.  And you of course had to
make sure you didn't use anything that wasn't in 1.0.  

You can't run 2.0 binaries on 1.1 or 1.0 because the metadata format changed to accomodate
generics.  And since 2.0, 3.0, 3.5 are all the same runtime no one has really
needed that feature for a while...

-- 
Tom Shelton
0
Tom
2/23/2010 5:31:17 PM
On Tue, 23 Feb 2010 09:31:17 -0800, Tom Shelton <tom_shelton@comcastXXXXXXX.net> wrote:

� > � > � >� Not if it's a .Net product.  My app depends on drag and drop
� > � > � >� deployment with no install.   .Net solutions don't allow for that.
� > � > � >� 
� > � > � >� Tony
� > � > � >
� > � > � >That might be true for XP systems if the .NET Framework is not installed but it isn't true of Vista
� > � > � >and Windows 7 where it comes pre-installed.
� > � > � >
� > � > � >Otherwise, for XP it's a one-time deployment.
� > � > � 
� > � > � Some folks are still running my app on Windows 2000.  I just had a
� > � > � simple request for an Access 97 specific feature.  (Which only took an
� > � > � hour to add.)
� > � > � 
� > � > � What about all the versioning problems?  Or are there none with the
� > � > � .NET Framework?
� > � > � 
� > � > � Tony
� > � >
� > � > With respect to versioning it's generally only an issue if you have compiled/targeted your app for a
� > � > version of the framework that is newer than what is installed.
� > � >
� > � 
� > � That wasn't always an issue either...  I had 1.1 code that ran on the 1.0
� > � runtime.  I just had to be carefull not to use stuff that got introduced in
� > � 1.1.
� >
� > Right, but with respect to the app you would still need to compile/target it for 1.0.
� >
� 
� No.  You would compile in VS2003 and run on the 1.0 framework.  You just had
� to setup the config file to allow the older runtime.  And you of course had to
� make sure you didn't use anything that wasn't in 1.0.  
� 
� You can't run 2.0 binaries on 1.1 or 1.0 because the metadata format changed to accomodate
� generics.  And since 2.0, 3.0, 3.5 are all the same runtime no one has really
� needed that feature for a while...

That is what I meant by targeted (I suppose "configured" would probably be clearer), as opposed to
compiled. Otherwise, the .NET Framework version loaded is determined by the PE CLR header of the
application assembly and the .NET Framework versions that are installed.


Paul
~~~~
Microsoft MVP (Visual Basic)
0
Paul
2/23/2010 6:44:44 PM
On 2010-02-23, Paul Clement <UseAdddressAtEndofMessage@swspectrum.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 23 Feb 2010 09:31:17 -0800, Tom Shelton <tom_shelton@comcastXXXXXXX.net> wrote:
>
> � > � > � >� Not if it's a .Net product.  My app depends on drag and drop
> � > � > � >� deployment with no install.   .Net solutions don't allow for that.
> � > � > � >� 
> � > � > � >� Tony
> � > � > � >
> � > � > � >That might be true for XP systems if the .NET Framework is not installed but it isn't true of Vista
> � > � > � >and Windows 7 where it comes pre-installed.
> � > � > � >
> � > � > � >Otherwise, for XP it's a one-time deployment.
> � > � > � 
> � > � > � Some folks are still running my app on Windows 2000.  I just had a
> � > � > � simple request for an Access 97 specific feature.  (Which only took an
> � > � > � hour to add.)
> � > � > � 
> � > � > � What about all the versioning problems?  Or are there none with the
> � > � > � .NET Framework?
> � > � > � 
> � > � > � Tony
> � > � >
> � > � > With respect to versioning it's generally only an issue if you have compiled/targeted your app for a
> � > � > version of the framework that is newer than what is installed.
> � > � >
> � > � 
> � > � That wasn't always an issue either...  I had 1.1 code that ran on the 1.0
> � > � runtime.  I just had to be carefull not to use stuff that got introduced in
> � > � 1.1.
> � >
> � > Right, but with respect to the app you would still need to compile/target it for 1.0.
> � >
> � 
> � No.  You would compile in VS2003 and run on the 1.0 framework.  You just had
> � to setup the config file to allow the older runtime.  And you of course had to
> � make sure you didn't use anything that wasn't in 1.0.  
> � 
> � You can't run 2.0 binaries on 1.1 or 1.0 because the metadata format changed to accomodate
> � generics.  And since 2.0, 3.0, 3.5 are all the same runtime no one has really
> � needed that feature for a while...
>
> That is what I meant by targeted (I suppose "configured" would probably be clearer), as opposed to
> compiled. Otherwise, the .NET Framework version loaded is determined by the PE CLR header of the
> application assembly and the .NET Framework versions that are installed.
>
>
> Paul
> ~~~~
> Microsoft MVP (Visual Basic)


-- 
Tom Shelton
0
Tom
2/23/2010 6:52:42 PM
"Paul Clement" <UseAdddressAtEndofMessage@swspectrum.com> wrote in message 
news:ns78o5l6gpsuq559b4n2su6vcihgk4tieo@4ax.com...

Look, Clement, just stop being an idiot and take all this dotnet stuff 
somewhere else! You're just trolling now. What you are doing is designed 
purely to annoy the people who are using this group for what it is intended, 
which is VB6 and earlier. Micro$oft created a new and different newsgrroup 
for their new and different product, and that's where you should go if you 
want to discuss VB.Net. I've copied this message to the new group so if you 
don't know where it is then you'll be able to find it from the details at 
the top of this post.

Just go away, troll.

Mike



0
Mike
2/24/2010 2:32:27 PM
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