3d line charts cause Excel 2007 to crash

This is more of a bug report than a question (I've not been able to find a 
standard place to report bugs in Office 2007, the Connect site is for 
developer products such as Visual Studio etc).  

3d line charts which work perfectly well on a pc with Excel 2003 cause Excel 
2007 to hang when opened on my Vista pc with Excel 2007.

I hope this is something which can be fixed when Service Pack 1 is released 
for Office 2007, as it is a very useful chart feature which we (and our 
clients) use a lot in one area of our work, and it may prevent our clients 
from migrating from Office 2003 to Office 2007.
0
8/21/2007 3:36:00 AM
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Yet another reason to avoid 3D charts.

- Jon
-------
Jon Peltier, Microsoft Excel MVP
Tutorials and Custom Solutions
Peltier Technical Services, Inc. - http://PeltierTech.com
_______


"Patrick Lee" <PatrickLee@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message 
news:0139F204-003F-4A4B-AD80-24DAFB788BD2@microsoft.com...
> This is more of a bug report than a question (I've not been able to find a
> standard place to report bugs in Office 2007, the Connect site is for
> developer products such as Visual Studio etc).
>
> 3d line charts which work perfectly well on a pc with Excel 2003 cause 
> Excel
> 2007 to hang when opened on my Vista pc with Excel 2007.
>
> I hope this is something which can be fixed when Service Pack 1 is 
> released
> for Office 2007, as it is a very useful chart feature which we (and our
> clients) use a lot in one area of our work, and it may prevent our clients
> from migrating from Office 2003 to Office 2007. 


0
jonxlmvpNO (4558)
8/21/2007 4:03:27 PM
I'm afraid that comment is of no value to me: in the real world there are 
more than 2 dimensions and a 3D graph is much more useful to display 3D real 
life data (in this case how mortality improvements are expected to vary both 
by age and calendar year) than hundreds of separate 2D charts.  This is one 
of those cases were a picture is worth a thousand words, and 3D charts 
genuinely add value in situations where a variable depends on 2 other 
variables and not just one.

"Jon Peltier" wrote:

> Yet another reason to avoid 3D charts.
> 
> - Jon
> -------
> Jon Peltier, Microsoft Excel MVP
> Tutorials and Custom Solutions
> Peltier Technical Services, Inc. - http://PeltierTech.com
> _______
> 
> 
> "Patrick Lee" <PatrickLee@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message 
> news:0139F204-003F-4A4B-AD80-24DAFB788BD2@microsoft.com...
> > This is more of a bug report than a question (I've not been able to find a
> > standard place to report bugs in Office 2007, the Connect site is for
> > developer products such as Visual Studio etc).
> >
> > 3d line charts which work perfectly well on a pc with Excel 2003 cause 
> > Excel
> > 2007 to hang when opened on my Vista pc with Excel 2007.
> >
> > I hope this is something which can be fixed when Service Pack 1 is 
> > released
> > for Office 2007, as it is a very useful chart feature which we (and our
> > clients) use a lot in one area of our work, and it may prevent our clients
> > from migrating from Office 2003 to Office 2007. 
> 
> 
> 
0
8/21/2007 9:12:02 PM
Use a 2D clustered column chart, or a line chart with multiple series, one 
for each category which is not related to the main category axis. You can 
show what you want in at most two of either chart. Or design the charts so 
that you can use an array of small copies, or "small multiples". The 
categorical dimensions make as much sense if separated by series as by some 
hard to conceptualize distance in an imaginary third dimension. Your screen, 
and the printout, are only 2D. The effects of perspective and parallax make 
values and even trends difficult to perceive in 3D charts, rendering their 
added value questionable at best.

- Jon
-------
Jon Peltier, Microsoft Excel MVP
Peltier Technical Services, Inc.
774-275-0064
208-485-0691 fax
jon@peltiertech.com
http://PeltierTech.com/
_______


"Patrick Lee" <PatrickLee@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message 
news:8F75A664-4D62-4650-B89F-0F00AE68C6B6@microsoft.com...
> I'm afraid that comment is of no value to me: in the real world there are
> more than 2 dimensions and a 3D graph is much more useful to display 3D 
> real
> life data (in this case how mortality improvements are expected to vary 
> both
> by age and calendar year) than hundreds of separate 2D charts.  This is 
> one
> of those cases were a picture is worth a thousand words, and 3D charts
> genuinely add value in situations where a variable depends on 2 other
> variables and not just one.
>
> "Jon Peltier" wrote:
>
>> Yet another reason to avoid 3D charts.
>>
>> - Jon
>> -------
>> Jon Peltier, Microsoft Excel MVP
>> Tutorials and Custom Solutions
>> Peltier Technical Services, Inc. - http://PeltierTech.com
>> _______
>>
>>
>> "Patrick Lee" <PatrickLee@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
>> news:0139F204-003F-4A4B-AD80-24DAFB788BD2@microsoft.com...
>> > This is more of a bug report than a question (I've not been able to 
>> > find a
>> > standard place to report bugs in Office 2007, the Connect site is for
>> > developer products such as Visual Studio etc).
>> >
>> > 3d line charts which work perfectly well on a pc with Excel 2003 cause
>> > Excel
>> > 2007 to hang when opened on my Vista pc with Excel 2007.
>> >
>> > I hope this is something which can be fixed when Service Pack 1 is
>> > released
>> > for Office 2007, as it is a very useful chart feature which we (and our
>> > clients) use a lot in one area of our work, and it may prevent our 
>> > clients
>> > from migrating from Office 2003 to Office 2007.
>>
>>
>> 


0
jonxlmvpNO (4558)
8/22/2007 2:14:40 AM
On Tue, 21 Aug 2007, in microsoft.public.excel.charting,
Patrick Lee <PatrickLee@discussions.microsoft.com> said:
>I'm afraid that comment is of no value to me: in the real world there are
>more than 2 dimensions

In the real world of data, there are more than *three* dimensions. If 
you need a spatial metaphor to represent a dimension, you're screwed the 
first time you encounter a data set with four dimensions or more.

Experienced consultants like Jon can render for their clients four or 
more dimensions on a two-dimensional piece of paper, with greater 
clarity and punch than anyone can achieve with a "3D" Excel bar chart.

-- 
Del Cotter
NB Personal replies to this post will send email to del@branta.demon.co.uk,
    which goes to a spam folder-- please send your email to del3 instead.
0
del1907 (586)
8/22/2007 7:58:12 AM
I respect that you are a Microsoft MVP, but I'm afraid that your suggestions 
don't meet the demands of many real world situations in mathematics, science 
or engineering. The 2D charts that you suggest fail to enable users to 
identify patterns in the effects of the 2nd variable, please see (it is a 
pity one images can't be posted here directly) 
http://www.inqa.com/modules.php?set_albumName=3DChartProblem&id=TheNeedFor3DGraphs&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_photo.php 
for a current real world example in the field of mortality projection.

"Jon Peltier" wrote:

> Use a 2D clustered column chart, or a line chart with multiple series, one 
> for each category which is not related to the main category axis. You can 
> show what you want in at most two of either chart. Or design the charts so 
> that you can use an array of small copies, or "small multiples". The 
> categorical dimensions make as much sense if separated by series as by some 
> hard to conceptualize distance in an imaginary third dimension. Your screen, 
> and the printout, are only 2D. The effects of perspective and parallax make 
> values and even trends difficult to perceive in 3D charts, rendering their 
> added value questionable at best.
> 
> - Jon
> -------
> Jon Peltier, Microsoft Excel MVP
> Peltier Technical Services, Inc.
> 774-275-0064
> 208-485-0691 fax
> jon@peltiertech.com
> http://PeltierTech.com/
> _______
> 
> 
> "Patrick Lee" <PatrickLee@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message 
> news:8F75A664-4D62-4650-B89F-0F00AE68C6B6@microsoft.com...
> > I'm afraid that comment is of no value to me: in the real world there are
> > more than 2 dimensions and a 3D graph is much more useful to display 3D 
> > real
> > life data (in this case how mortality improvements are expected to vary 
> > both
> > by age and calendar year) than hundreds of separate 2D charts.  This is 
> > one
> > of those cases were a picture is worth a thousand words, and 3D charts
> > genuinely add value in situations where a variable depends on 2 other
> > variables and not just one.
> >
> > "Jon Peltier" wrote:
> >
> >> Yet another reason to avoid 3D charts.
> >>
> >> - Jon
> >> -------
> >> Jon Peltier, Microsoft Excel MVP
> >> Tutorials and Custom Solutions
> >> Peltier Technical Services, Inc. - http://PeltierTech.com
> >> _______
> >>
> >>
> >> "Patrick Lee" <PatrickLee@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
> >> news:0139F204-003F-4A4B-AD80-24DAFB788BD2@microsoft.com...
> >> > This is more of a bug report than a question (I've not been able to 
> >> > find a
> >> > standard place to report bugs in Office 2007, the Connect site is for
> >> > developer products such as Visual Studio etc).
> >> >
> >> > 3d line charts which work perfectly well on a pc with Excel 2003 cause
> >> > Excel
> >> > 2007 to hang when opened on my Vista pc with Excel 2007.
> >> >
> >> > I hope this is something which can be fixed when Service Pack 1 is
> >> > released
> >> > for Office 2007, as it is a very useful chart feature which we (and our
> >> > clients) use a lot in one area of our work, and it may prevent our 
> >> > clients
> >> > from migrating from Office 2003 to Office 2007.
> >>
> >>
> >> 
> 
> 
> 
0
8/22/2007 8:50:05 AM
Jon is no doubt experienced in many aspects of Excel since he is an MVP, but 
his comments so far (ie using 2D clustered column or 2d line graphs) have not 
addressed the issues I have raised.  Rather than saying there are ways of 
showing 3 or more dimensional data without using 3D charts (but without, so 
far at least showing anything that is better than a 3D chart), wouldn't it be 
more constructive to address the issue, which is that since 3D charts ARE 
part of Excel 2007 but currently cause it to freeze, it would be good if 
Microsoft fixed this in the next Service Pack or earlier?
(Incidentally, I did not suggest that 3d bar charts were useful, the title 
of this post is about 3d LINE charts not bar charts.)

"Del Cotter" wrote:

> On Tue, 21 Aug 2007, in microsoft.public.excel.charting,
> Patrick Lee <PatrickLee@discussions.microsoft.com> said:
> >I'm afraid that comment is of no value to me: in the real world there are
> >more than 2 dimensions
> 
> In the real world of data, there are more than *three* dimensions. If 
> you need a spatial metaphor to represent a dimension, you're screwed the 
> first time you encounter a data set with four dimensions or more.
> 
> Experienced consultants like Jon can render for their clients four or 
> more dimensions on a two-dimensional piece of paper, with greater 
> clarity and punch than anyone can achieve with a "3D" Excel bar chart.
> 
> -- 
> Del Cotter
> NB Personal replies to this post will send email to del@branta.demon.co.uk,
>     which goes to a spam folder-- please send your email to del3 instead.
> 
0
8/22/2007 9:04:03 AM
On Aug 22, 10:04 am, Patrick Lee
<Patrick...@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote:
> Jon is no doubt experienced in many aspects ofExcelsince he is an MVP, but
> his comments so far (ie using 2D clustered column or 2d line graphs) have not
> addressed the issues I have raised.  Rather than saying there are ways of
> showing 3 or more dimensional data without using3Dcharts (but without, so
> far at least showing anything that is better than a3Dchart),

Your least bad option for the sort of bulk 3D data that you want to
plot would be a contour diagram or false colour image of the dependant
variable as a function of calendar year and age.

> wouldn't it be
> more constructive to address the issue, which is that since3Dcharts ARE
> part ofExcel2007 but currentlycauseit to freeze, it would be good if
> Microsoft fixed this in the next Service Pack or earlier?

Does it freeze in all cases even for trivial small test data, or just
for specific large datasets?

Your other alternative is to avoid Excel 2007 altogether until they
fix the bug.

Regards,
Martin Brown

0
Martin
8/22/2007 10:51:37 AM

"Martin Brown" wrote:
Martin - thank you for the response.

You wrote:
> Your least bad option for the sort of bulk 3D data that you want to
> plot would be a contour diagram or false colour image of the dependant
> variable as a function of calendar year and age.
> 

How do I produce these 2 types of charts using Excel 2007?  I've tried the 
standard types, including Scatter and Area but they don't produce what is 
needed.

> 
> Does it freeze in all cases even for trivial small test data, or just
> for specific large datasets?
> 
> Your other alternative is to avoid Excel 2007 altogether until they
> fix the bug.
> 
My full data set has 20,200 numbers (101 rows [ages] by 200 columns 
[calendar years]).  Experiments show that freezing doesn't occur for trivial 
small data, but it does start to occur (at least on my Dell Inspiron 9300 
notebook with a 2GHz Pentium M processor and 2GB of RAM, running Windows 
Vista Ultimate) with more than 4000 numbers (e.g. 20 rows by 200 columns), 
getting progressively worse of course as the volume of data increases.
For the moment, we are avoiding producing 3D graphs in Excel 2007 (we can 
use Excel 2003 on other pcs for such graphs). 
The key issue for us here is to make sure (contrary to Jon's and Del's 
comments so far which are not helpful because they give the impression that 
3D graphs are not important, I'm afraid that is just plain wrong) that 
Microsoft is aware that this is an important issue which needs to be fixed.
0
8/22/2007 12:06:00 PM
I agree with Martin's suggestion that a contour or surface chart is probably 
the best option. 3D line charts can be among the ugliest 3D options, though 
I admit the page you linked to shows a relatively useful implementation. 
Contour and surface charts are indeed available in Excel 2007, just scroll 
through the various chart type options. They are also painfully slow in 
2007, by the way. Also, the stupid shadowing of the surface charts in 2007 
make them more difficult to interpret.

A great many people have upgraded to 2007 without testing their most 
important work on it first. The excruciatingly slow chart rendering for 
"large" (i.e., small in 2003) data sets is a well known issue with Excel 
2007. Microsoft knowledge base article kb938538 
(http://support.microsoft.com/kb/938538) describes a recent hotfix which I 
found improves the problem somewhat, though it's still way slower than in 
2003.

- Jon
-------
Jon Peltier, Microsoft Excel MVP
Tutorials and Custom Solutions
Peltier Technical Services, Inc. - http://PeltierTech.com
_______


"Patrick Lee" <PatrickLee@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message 
news:985B791D-BE43-4D02-9625-2A834D36C18F@microsoft.com...
>
>
> "Martin Brown" wrote:
> Martin - thank you for the response.
>
> You wrote:
>> Your least bad option for the sort of bulk 3D data that you want to
>> plot would be a contour diagram or false colour image of the dependant
>> variable as a function of calendar year and age.
>>
>
> How do I produce these 2 types of charts using Excel 2007?  I've tried the
> standard types, including Scatter and Area but they don't produce what is
> needed.
>
>>
>> Does it freeze in all cases even for trivial small test data, or just
>> for specific large datasets?
>>
>> Your other alternative is to avoid Excel 2007 altogether until they
>> fix the bug.
>>
> My full data set has 20,200 numbers (101 rows [ages] by 200 columns
> [calendar years]).  Experiments show that freezing doesn't occur for 
> trivial
> small data, but it does start to occur (at least on my Dell Inspiron 9300
> notebook with a 2GHz Pentium M processor and 2GB of RAM, running Windows
> Vista Ultimate) with more than 4000 numbers (e.g. 20 rows by 200 columns),
> getting progressively worse of course as the volume of data increases.
> For the moment, we are avoiding producing 3D graphs in Excel 2007 (we can
> use Excel 2003 on other pcs for such graphs).
> The key issue for us here is to make sure (contrary to Jon's and Del's
> comments so far which are not helpful because they give the impression 
> that
> 3D graphs are not important, I'm afraid that is just plain wrong) that
> Microsoft is aware that this is an important issue which needs to be 
> fixed. 


0
jonxlmvpNO (4558)
8/22/2007 12:46:51 PM
Dear Patrick,

If you have Mathcad, you may already know it can produce 3d charts
Excel cannot (will it ever?).

Mathcad charting has its own limitations, too.  But if its 3d charts
fit your needs, try the excel addin from the mathcad web site.  It
enables you to get mathcad's 3d charts right on an excel worksheet,
plotting data from the worksheet.

Brian Murphy

0
9/3/2007 12:03:53 AM
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Hello I have an Exchange 2007 RTM box running in a Windows 2003 only domain. When we scan a document from our Dell 1815n multifunction and have the output emailed, the document shows up as encoded garble instead of an attached document. A message header from a bad email is below. When we scan a document from the same device and send it to a mailbox that still lives on our last remaining Exchange 2003 server, the output from the scanner is attached as a PDF document normally. Any ideas? Thanks Michael Buckley Header from email recieved to Exchange 2007: (server names and I...

Problem with named range for a large spreadsheet in Excel 2007
Hello, I am trying to generate a large Excel spreadsheet apprx. 10000 rows and 40 columns. I am generating defined name section in the Workbook.xml part of the XLSM package. Here is a sample entry from that section <definedName name="_._44802_._0_._0_._0_._top_line" localSheetId="0" hidden="1">Sheet1!$B$2</definedName> Although the generation goes fine, I can not open the spreadsheet as the Excel throws an error message saying the package is corrupt. But this is not the case if the spreadsheet is small say, 200 rows by 10 columns. ...

Excel VBA
When you select the autofilter, the drop down list is created from the unique data in that column. Is there any way to customize this list, so the changes are permanent? For instance, I might have in one(1) column the following 4 row entries: red, blue, green (all are single cell entries) red, blue red blue, green I want my autofilter drop down list to read: red instead of red, blue, green blue red, blue green red blue, green (like normal) If I chose red from the drop down list...

Outlook 2007 throws an error that it cannot receive email
Office 2007 Ultimate, Outlook 2007 (12.06514.5000) SP2. After sitting idle overnight Outlook 2007 throws an error that it cannot receive email. Closing Outlook 2007 and restarting it resolves this issue. Outlook/Office 2003 on my main PC does not exhibit this behavior. I've confirmed and re-confirmed my email client settings with earthlink.net and the problem does not appear to be there. Again, it seems to be with Outlook 2007 but only on this one PC (hp 180t Windows 7 Ultimate 64-bit). I did uninstall my Original Office 2007 Professional and re-installed Office 2007 Ultimate...