New Wine in Old Bottles problem (never use an old form on a new table schema / architecture)

FYI, I trust this is "old news" to Access veterans, but as a newbie it
caught me by surprise.

RL

Anybody have this problem when using an old form on a new database
Relationship?  I'm pretty sure it's a common problem (hint: don't do
it--always generate a new form if you change the primary keys in a
database schema / architecture).

On Dec 31, 11:31=A0am, "David Cressey" <cresse...@verizon.net> wrote:
> "Tony Toews [MVP]" <tto...@telusplanet.net> wrote in messagenews:1pfin3d2l=
l6t12ntvc659ek9ekt9bv1prj@4ax.com...

> > >Thanks. =A0I could not get the compound key to work in Access, which is=

> > >a bit strange (the restriction on whether a foreign key is a duplicate
> > >or is unique is rather hidden). =A0After many permutations, I gave up,
> > >but it could be a peculiarity of Access.
>
> > >I could be wrong, but I don't think Access has any particular limitatio=
ns
> inthis regard.
>
> > I did an Access database using compound keys back in A2.0 in about 1995 =
or
> so. =A0If
> > anything it works a bit better these days.
>
> > Tony
>
> Tony,
>
> This is the second time around with Ray and compound keys, =A0here in
> comp.databases.theory.
>
> A little while ago some of us walked him through setting up a compound key=

> for a junction table in MS Access. =A0(In spite of the fact that none of u=
s
> work much with Access). =A0That worked, according to Ray.
>
> Ray may not have recognized this as another instance of exactly the same
> problem.
>

OK, you'll like this.  As fireworks go off outside (I'm ahead of your
time zone), and no wild parties to go to, with a social event looming
tommorrow, very little sleep (this programming stuff is addictive you
know), I spent a good part of two hours trying to get this dang new
schema to work.

I finally figured it out, and it took me a while:  Access does indeed
allow compound primary keys, relationships between compound keys, and
the like between tables. No problem whatsoever (I generated from
scratch just such a form, so I know it can be done).  However, in my
particular case the problem is this: if you take an old *FORM* (that
is, the Access' front end data entry GUI), that has been customized
for use with artificial non-compound keys (i.e. GUIDs, Long Ints,
etc), apparently, and I'm almost certain of this, the FORMS (not the
tables) contain meta-data on 'indices' and the like, that prevent you
from using the old form with the new compound keys.  As proof of this,
I finally saw that the form, when used to create a table having a
subform (child table), was not generating a foreign compound key (one
of the two), and the column for this key was missing.  I tried and
correctly specified the "master-child' link for the subform, the
proper generic SQL query for both parent and child subform, and the
like, and still when it came time to enter more than one record, I
notice when I clicked on the raw table a certain compound key
"Stock_ID" for the subform was not being generated (the column was
missing, literally).  When I manually inserted it, and fired up the
form again, I got a warming that there was ambiguity in the name of
the stock_id column (since in Access there's an annoying but
convenient habit of not enforcing name distinctions much--you often
have the same name floating around with little if any scope resolution
operator, but I digress).  The point of the exercise was to show that
the old form is messed up.  I'll cross post this in microsoft.public.=AD
access.=ADformscoding to see if it rings a bell.

I am very confident that I could get the compound primary keys (being
used as foreign keys in a subform table) to work, IF I USED A NEW
FORM.  That is the key--no pun intended--using a new form when you
change the keys radically, and you're in form.

ANybody else have this problem?  I'm 99% sure this is Access specific
and not in anyway a bug of Access, but a really nasty little
undocumented feature!

> Interestingly enough, =A0if you ask Access 97 for help with relationships,=

> and select the topic "creating a many-to-many relationship" =A0it tells yo=
u to
> make a junction table with a compound key. =A0This is exactly the advice I=

> gave, =A0with more detail on how to do it.
>
> But if you turn to some of the books about working with access, =A0or if y=
ou
> take you cue from the "Northwind" database, =A0you'll get advice to create=
 an
> ID field for the junction table, =A0and declare that as the primary key.
> Unfortunate for the newbies.

BTW, even with the GUID keys in my original schema, I can get the dB
to work fine, except, like I've said, I have to programically check
for duplicate entries--not the end of the world for a small database
like mine.

Happy New Year!  I'm going to bed...

RL
0
raylopez99
12/31/2007 11:33:56 PM
access.formscoding 7493 articles. 0 followers. Follow

6 Replies
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[PageSpeed] 56

I just did the following:

Create a table "Table1" with an autonumber PK
Create another table "Table2" with an autonumber PK and a long field as a 
foreign key to PK in Table1.
Type some data into both tables.
Create a form bound to Table1, and another form bound to Table2.
Add the Table2 form to the Table1 form as a subform, linked on the PK/FK 
field.
Works fine as expected.
Delete the relationship between the two tables, and the data
Add two text fields to Table1 and make them the (compound) PK
Add two text fields to Table2 and make them an FK to PK in Table1
Type some data into the tables.
Add the new fields to both forms as textboxes.
Change the master/child relationship so as to link the form/subform on the 
two text fields.

Works fine as expected, including being able to add new records to both form 
and subform.

You've made a few remarks that I don't understand, such as:

"and the column for this key was missing."
"I notice when I clicked on the raw table a certain compound key
"Stock_ID" for the subform was not being generated (the column was
missing, literally)."
"When I manually inserted it, and fired up the
form again, I got a warming that there was ambiguity in the name of
the stock_id column"

These comments lead me to suspect that you made a mistake in the record 
source of one or both forms.  After many, many years of Access development 
in umpteen versions, I can assure you that the form stores NO meta data 
about keys and indices.



"raylopez99" <raylopez99@yahoo.com> wrote in message 
news:dd353962-a796-41d5-9ddf-6d80efb2dce3@e50g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
FYI, I trust this is "old news" to Access veterans, but as a newbie it
caught me by surprise.

RL

Anybody have this problem when using an old form on a new database
Relationship?  I'm pretty sure it's a common problem (hint: don't do
it--always generate a new form if you change the primary keys in a
database schema / architecture).


OK, you'll like this.  As fireworks go off outside (I'm ahead of your
time zone), and no wild parties to go to, with a social event looming
tommorrow, very little sleep (this programming stuff is addictive you
know), I spent a good part of two hours trying to get this dang new
schema to work.

I finally figured it out, and it took me a while:  Access does indeed
allow compound primary keys, relationships between compound keys, and
the like between tables. No problem whatsoever (I generated from
scratch just such a form, so I know it can be done).  However, in my
particular case the problem is this: if you take an old *FORM* (that
is, the Access' front end data entry GUI), that has been customized
for use with artificial non-compound keys (i.e. GUIDs, Long Ints,
etc), apparently, and I'm almost certain of this, the FORMS (not the
tables) contain meta-data on 'indices' and the like, that prevent you
from using the old form with the new compound keys.  As proof of this,
I finally saw that the form, when used to create a table having a
subform (child table), was not generating a foreign compound key (one
of the two), and the column for this key was missing.  I tried and
correctly specified the "master-child' link for the subform, the
proper generic SQL query for both parent and child subform, and the
like, and still when it came time to enter more than one record, I
notice when I clicked on the raw table a certain compound key
"Stock_ID" for the subform was not being generated (the column was
missing, literally).  When I manually inserted it, and fired up the
form again, I got a warming that there was ambiguity in the name of
the stock_id column (since in Access there's an annoying but
convenient habit of not enforcing name distinctions much--you often
have the same name floating around with little if any scope resolution
operator, but I digress).  The point of the exercise was to show that
the old form is messed up.  I'll cross post this in microsoft.public.�
access.�formscoding to see if it rings a bell.

I am very confident that I could get the compound primary keys (being
used as foreign keys in a subform table) to work, IF I USED A NEW
FORM.  That is the key--no pun intended--using a new form when you
change the keys radically, and you're in form.

ANybody else have this problem?  I'm 99% sure this is Access specific
and not in anyway a bug of Access, but a really nasty little
undocumented feature!

> Interestingly enough, if you ask Access 97 for help with relationships,
> and select the topic "creating a many-to-many relationship" it tells you 
> to
> make a junction table with a compound key. This is exactly the advice I
> gave, with more detail on how to do it.
>
> But if you turn to some of the books about working with access, or if you
> take you cue from the "Northwind" database, you'll get advice to create an
> ID field for the junction table, and declare that as the primary key.
> Unfortunate for the newbies.

BTW, even with the GUID keys in my original schema, I can get the dB
to work fine, except, like I've said, I have to programically check
for duplicate entries--not the end of the world for a small database
like mine.

Happy New Year!  I'm going to bed...

RL 


0
Baz
1/1/2008 11:16:24 AM
"Baz" <baz@nospam.nowhere> wrote in message 
news:477a2108$0$13935$fa0fcedb@news.zen.co.uk...
>I just did the following:
> These comments lead me to suspect that you made a mistake in the record 
> source of one or both forms.

You are being too kind...  He did make a mistake.

Once the binding of the form data controls is removed from the table, there is 
no further relationship to the table period.

You can in fact turn all the controls to Unbound controls (including the form) 
and programatically change everything to bound controls at runtime, first to 
one table and then to the other without consequence (assumption: both tables 
are structurally identical).

This should not be debated further.

>  After many, many years of Access development in umpteen versions, I can 
> assure you that the form stores NO meta data about keys and indices.
>
>
>
> "raylopez99" <raylopez99@yahoo.com> wrote in message 
> news:dd353962-a796-41d5-9ddf-6d80efb2dce3@e50g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
> FYI, I trust this is "old news" to Access veterans, but as a newbie it
> caught me by surprise.
>
> RL
>
> Anybody have this problem when using an old form on a new database
> Relationship?  I'm pretty sure it's a common problem (hint: don't do
> it--always generate a new form if you change the primary keys in a
> database schema / architecture).
>
>
> OK, you'll like this.  As fireworks go off outside (I'm ahead of your
> time zone), and no wild parties to go to, with a social event looming
> tommorrow, very little sleep (this programming stuff is addictive you
> know), I spent a good part of two hours trying to get this dang new
> schema to work.
>
> I finally figured it out, and it took me a while:  Access does indeed
> allow compound primary keys, relationships between compound keys, and
> the like between tables. No problem whatsoever (I generated from
> scratch just such a form, so I know it can be done).  However, in my
> particular case the problem is this: if you take an old *FORM* (that
> is, the Access' front end data entry GUI), that has been customized
> for use with artificial non-compound keys (i.e. GUIDs, Long Ints,
> etc), apparently, and I'm almost certain of this, the FORMS (not the
> tables) contain meta-data on 'indices' and the like, that prevent you
> from using the old form with the new compound keys.  As proof of this,
> I finally saw that the form, when used to create a table having a
> subform (child table), was not generating a foreign compound key (one
> of the two), and the column for this key was missing.  I tried and
> correctly specified the "master-child' link for the subform, the
> proper generic SQL query for both parent and child subform, and the
> like, and still when it came time to enter more than one record, I
> notice when I clicked on the raw table a certain compound key
> "Stock_ID" for the subform was not being generated (the column was
> missing, literally).  When I manually inserted it, and fired up the
> form again, I got a warming that there was ambiguity in the name of
> the stock_id column (since in Access there's an annoying but
> convenient habit of not enforcing name distinctions much--you often
> have the same name floating around with little if any scope resolution
> operator, but I digress).  The point of the exercise was to show that
> the old form is messed up.  I'll cross post this in microsoft.public.�
> access.�formscoding to see if it rings a bell.
>
> I am very confident that I could get the compound primary keys (being
> used as foreign keys in a subform table) to work, IF I USED A NEW
> FORM.  That is the key--no pun intended--using a new form when you
> change the keys radically, and you're in form.
>
> ANybody else have this problem?  I'm 99% sure this is Access specific
> and not in anyway a bug of Access, but a really nasty little
> undocumented feature!
>
>> Interestingly enough, if you ask Access 97 for help with relationships,
>> and select the topic "creating a many-to-many relationship" it tells you to
>> make a junction table with a compound key. This is exactly the advice I
>> gave, with more detail on how to do it.
>>
>> But if you turn to some of the books about working with access, or if you
>> take you cue from the "Northwind" database, you'll get advice to create an
>> ID field for the junction table, and declare that as the primary key.
>> Unfortunate for the newbies.
>
> BTW, even with the GUID keys in my original schema, I can get the dB
> to work fine, except, like I've said, I have to programically check
> for duplicate entries--not the end of the world for a small database
> like mine.
>
> Happy New Year!  I'm going to bed...
>
> RL
> 


0
MikeB
1/1/2008 12:42:07 PM
On Jan 1, 6:16=A0am, "Baz" <b...@nospam.nowhere> wrote:

The devil is in the details.

Did you use the Wizard, like I did, to set up the Form/Subform?  If
so, you might get a different result.

In any event, after two hours of trying to get the form to work, to
the point where I had to manually insert stuff like columns in the
table (without using the Form, since the new columns were not showing
up in the form despite me adding them manually in the form), which
eventually resulted in the Form not just saying that a relationship
would be violated, but in fact getting a "whitened out" subform, I
gave up.

And indeed with a "clean" table, starting from scratch, I was able to
set up a compound key--but I used the Wizard again afresh on the clean
table, not trying to 'manually' change the relationships as set up by
the Wizard (and I'm not talking about adding a control either, after
the Wizard has done it's work).

Bottom line:  Visual Basic allows rapid prototyping but the lack of a
rigorous compiler and loose use of namespaces makes it a trap for the
unwary.  But if you have years of experience you probably think it's
swell, not unlike a unicyclist thinking a unicycle is easy to drive.

RL
0
raylopez99
1/1/2008 9:10:56 PM
"raylopez99" <raylopez99@yahoo.com> wrote in message 
news:2678b943-2859-4c8d-b3ba-003e3990eec2@e26g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
On Jan 1, 6:16 am, "Baz" <b...@nospam.nowhere> wrote:

> Did you use the Wizard, like I did, to set up the Form/Subform?  If
> so, you might get a different result.

Oh sure, that'll be the problem then...

> In any event, after two hours of trying to get the form to work, to
> the point where I had to manually insert stuff like columns in the
> table (without using the Form, since the new columns were not showing
> up in the form despite me adding them manually in the form), which
> eventually resulted in the Form not just saying that a relationship
> would be violated, but in fact getting a "whitened out" subform, I
> gave up.

A "whitened-out" subform is a sure sign that you got it's RecordSource wrong 
(however long you spent trying to get it right...)

> And indeed with a "clean" table, starting from scratch, I was able to
> set up a compound key--but I used the Wizard again afresh on the clean
> table, not trying to 'manually' change the relationships as set up by
> the Wizard (and I'm not talking about adding a control either, after
> the Wizard has done it's work).

> Bottom line:  Visual Basic allows rapid prototyping but the lack of a
> rigorous compiler and loose use of namespaces makes it a trap for the
> unwary.  But if you have years of experience you probably think it's
> swell, not unlike a unicyclist thinking a unicycle is easy to drive.

The fact that you think Visual Basic (or even VBA) has got anything to do 
with creating tables, forms and subforms demonstrates your almost total 
ignorance.  But it matters not: given that your several days' experience 
clearly makes you an expert (in your own estimation), I guess you will not 
be needing us any more.  DLTDHYITAOTWO. 


0
Baz
1/1/2008 10:47:57 PM
On Jan 1, 5:47=A0pm, "Baz" <b...@nospam.nowhere> wrote:
> The fact that you think Visual Basic (or even VBA) has got anything to do
> with creating tables, forms and subforms demonstrates your almost total
> ignorance. =A0But it matters not: given that your several days' experience=

> clearly makes you an expert (in your own estimation), I guess you will not=

> be needing us any more. =A0DLTDHYITAOTWO.

The fact that you are so literal means you are a computer programmer
competing with 16 year olds working for peanuts in Bangladore while I
am your boss, LOL!

Hey, in another week I'll be done with this VB project, and it looks
good, even if the tables are not in strict "Third Normal Form".
Access through VB gets the job done, like a rusty but trusty old
AK-47.

Happy coding Baz!

RL

0
raylopez99
1/2/2008 10:52:36 AM
I loved your solution to the incredibly difficult problem of counting some 
records and displaying the result.  I don't know why I bother in the face of 
such genius, I might as well give up now.

"raylopez99" <raylopez99@yahoo.com> wrote in message 
news:5c266790-eb14-4319-b5b6-6ed7e7519a27@m34g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
On Jan 1, 5:47 pm, "Baz" <b...@nospam.nowhere> wrote:
> The fact that you think Visual Basic (or even VBA) has got anything to do
> with creating tables, forms and subforms demonstrates your almost total
> ignorance. But it matters not: given that your several days' experience
> clearly makes you an expert (in your own estimation), I guess you will not
> be needing us any more. DLTDHYITAOTWO.

The fact that you are so literal means you are a computer programmer
competing with 16 year olds working for peanuts in Bangladore while I
am your boss, LOL!

Hey, in another week I'll be done with this VB project, and it looks
good, even if the tables are not in strict "Third Normal Form".
Access through VB gets the job done, like a rusty but trusty old
AK-47.

Happy coding Baz!

RL


0
Baz
1/2/2008 3:56:23 PM
Reply:

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Hi, I am currently on an IBM X21 laptop and is running windows 98 se with office 97 pro. I recently experienced some problems with outlook (illegal operations etc) and reinstalled office to fix the problem but since then I have not been able to send or recieve emails with outlook 97 and outlook express 6. I simply get an error message saying the host can't be found (but does exist and I can ping it successfully). Any suggestions on what I might do? I have tried creating new accounts in windows mail and outlook express, but I still get the same error. Thankyou in advance! Tim D...

Having problem with spoofing email
Our users just received multiple email from different users outside the company. In the To: line, it shows his user name correctly but when he print those email, the To: line was showing somebody else name on the print out. Is there a way to block this behavior? I'm using E2k3. For some reason our spam (postini) didn't pick up these emails. Thank you, Could you please post the message in raw format (including the mail headers) Petch wrote: > Our users just received multiple email from different users outside the > company. In the To: line, it shows his user name cor...

explanation of codes in Visual Basic when creating User form
Hi, I am trying to create a user form in Visual Basic however I'm trying to teach myself by reading/watching tutorials. (www.contectures.o.ca, etc) A lot of the instructions I am seeing simply give the code rather than explain how to actually write one from scratch. So... I need to know what each 'term' means so I can understand how the codes work. Any help is much appreciated :) One of the first codes is for the Add button Private Sub cmdAdd_Click() Dim iRow As Long Dim ws As Worksheet Set ws = Worksheets("PartsData") What d...

New Record
I'm using the following in the On Click of a command button. DoCmd.GoToRecord acDataForm, "frmMyForm", acNewRec Anyway I can do this without referenceing the Object (Form) name?? James James, Yes... DoCmd.GoToRecord , , acNewRec God Bless, Mark A. Sam "JamesJ" <jjy@adelphia_darwin.net> wrote in message news:er2loxDPIHA.1208@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl... > I'm using the following in the On Click of a command button. > > DoCmd.GoToRecord acDataForm, "frmMyForm", acNewRec > > Anyway I can do this without referenceing the Object (Form)...

Problem with Range
Hello All, Using Windows & Excel XP. I have a worksheet that has times located in every other column, A1:A30, C1:C30, E1:E30. I then name the range "times". I want to find the count of times that are between 0:30:00 and 0:39:59 (30 and 39:59 minutes). I write the formula: =COUNTIF(times,">=" & TIME(0,30,0)) - COUNTIF(times,">=" & TIME(0,39,59)) but get the error #VALUE! I have tried writing a formula for times in one column and consecutive columns and it gives the correct count, it is just when the times in every other column that th...

Disable Secure Sockets Layer on exchange server when using RPC over HTTP
Hi im trying to enable RPC over HTTP to enable users to establish contact to my Excahger server 2003 over the internet. Now, I dont want to use SSL (security not that important) and i am told by this article that i can disable SSL in windows registry. Quote: Note While RPC over HTTP does not require Secure Sockets Layer, you must modify the registry to enable RPC over HTTP if you do not want to use Secure Sockets Layer. Microsoft recommends that you enable and require Secure Sockets Layer for your RPC over HTTP communications. At this address: http://support.microsoft.com/?id=833401 But i ...

How to automate increasing the form cache registry/file etc...
I want to roll out a batch file to make a number of tweaks to CRM The body of it would go REGEDIT /S Kerberosefix.reg REGEDIT /S ForceFormreload.reg REGEDIT /S OutlookFix.reg It would also rename OSA.exe to OSA.bad Remove OSA.exe From the startup menu I need help finding a way to use my batch file to increase the Outlook Form cache from the default 4MB to 50 MB.. This makes CRm more stable and faster for communications. I dont want to manually do this, as it time consuming, are my end users would not be reliable in doing it themselves. I also want to make another batch file or button that...

sys menu problem in MDI
I have an MDI with 3 childwnd. Whenever group of views from chiuldwnd type X is shown the childwnd Y views and childwnd Z views are hidden via ShowWindow(SW_HIDE) when changing the activate frame. it works. But when I press the minimize box on the ChildWnd sys menu, i C all the views no matter what type are them. I want that when I press the system menu the other views types will still be hidden and the views of the vurrent type will be shown as minimize, how di I do it ? 10x. J. ...

Problem sending encrypted email in OLXP
Hello All, I am having a problem sending encrypted email messages using OLXP if they are NOT in HTML format. Everything seems to work fine with OL2000 and OL2003. Any ideas about what may be going on? GW Gee Weez <weez.gee@gmail.com> wrote: > I am having a problem sending encrypted email messages using OLXP if > they are NOT in HTML format. Everything seems to work fine with OL2000 > and OL2003. Any ideas about what may be going on? Do you tell your doctor you're "having problems" or do you describe your symptoms with as much precision as you can manage? -- ...