TRUE vs true or FALSE vs false

What exactly is the difference.  This has always bothered me that this is 
the case.  I've noticed that you cannot substitute one for the other.  I'm 
guessing TRUE was the original way of doing things before "true" came along? 
The same case can be made with FALSE vs false.

Thanks
 

0
JCO
6/16/2010 2:23:44 PM
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On Wed, 16 Jun 2010 09:23:44 -0500, "JCO" <someone@somewhere.com>
wrote:

>What exactly is the difference.  This has always bothered me that this is 
>the case.  I've noticed that you cannot substitute one for the other.  I'm 
>guessing TRUE was the original way of doing things before "true" came along? 
>The same case can be made with FALSE vs false.
>

Compare sizeof(TRUE) with sizeof(true).

I believe TRUE/FALSE were introduced before true/false became standard
in C (and then C++).  Once they were well entrenched in the Windows
libraries it would have broken too much old code to change everything
to be consistent.

0
r
6/16/2010 2:38:13 PM
int x = sizeof(true);
int y = sizeof(TRUE);

x is 1
y is 4
Okay so the size if different?
I always attempt to use lowercase when possible.

"r norman" <r_s_norman@comcast.net> wrote in message 
news:haoh16pjir0uk12jdjdrdih03gi4g0kfgp@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 16 Jun 2010 09:23:44 -0500, "JCO" <someone@somewhere.com>
> wrote:
>
>>What exactly is the difference.  This has always bothered me that this is
>>the case.  I've noticed that you cannot substitute one for the other.  I'm
>>guessing TRUE was the original way of doing things before "true" came 
>>along?
>>The same case can be made with FALSE vs false.
>>
>
> Compare sizeof(TRUE) with sizeof(true).
>
> I believe TRUE/FALSE were introduced before true/false became standard
> in C (and then C++).  Once they were well entrenched in the Windows
> libraries it would have broken too much old code to change everything
> to be consistent.
> 
0
JCO
6/16/2010 3:22:21 PM
JCO wrote:
> int x = sizeof(true);
> int y = sizeof(TRUE);
> 
> x is 1
> y is 4
> Okay so the size if different?
> I always attempt to use lowercase when possible.
> 
> "r norman" <r_s_norman@comcast.net> wrote in message 
> news:haoh16pjir0uk12jdjdrdih03gi4g0kfgp@4ax.com...
>> On Wed, 16 Jun 2010 09:23:44 -0500, "JCO" <someone@somewhere.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> What exactly is the difference.  This has always bothered me that 
>>> this is
>>> the case.  I've noticed that you cannot substitute one for the 
>>> other.  I'm
>>> guessing TRUE was the original way of doing things before "true" came 
>>> along?
>>> The same case can be made with FALSE vs false.
>>>
>>
>> Compare sizeof(TRUE) with sizeof(true).
>>
>> I believe TRUE/FALSE were introduced before true/false became standard
>> in C (and then C++).  Once they were well entrenched in the Windows
>> libraries it would have broken too much old code to change everything
>> to be consistent.
>

TRUE and FALSE are the original C way of doing things.

Windows defines a BOOL data type which is a 32 integer.  This 
corresponds to TRUE and FALSE.

You should be able to find #define typedef or enum definitions for BOOL, 
TRUE and FALSE.

The bool data type is a relatively recent addition and is supported 
internally by the compiler.  It's size is normally a byte.

HTH
Steve
0
Stephen
6/16/2010 3:36:08 PM
TRUE and FALSE were defined by Windows many, many years ago, long before there was a
Boolean data type (one of the major design defects of the C language, but the list of
design defects is far too long to go into here!)

The BOOL data type is really
	typedef int BOOL;
in the Windows header files (not MFC, as some people believe)

C++ corrected the C design defect by adding a type bool and constants true and false.

The problem arises when there is the unfounded belief that a BOOL type can only be TRUE or
FALSE; essentially, it can be FALSE or non-FALSE (any value other than 0 is non-FALSE)
where TRUE is one particular value, the constant 1.

Thefore, it is nonsensical to take a function of the form
	BOOL function(...);
and write something of the form
	if(function(...) == TRUE)

because the value might not be 1.  Unfortunately, due to terminal brain rot, the Win9X
series of imitation operating systems often returned a non-zero value not equal to 1. This
failure has been propagated into any number of libraries that claim to return BOOL but in
fact can return non-FALSE values that are not equal to TRUE.

The correct test, of course is to write
	if(function(...))
and this also applies to BOOL variables; NEVER write
	if(var == TRUE)
but ALWAYS
	if(var)
and never write
	if(var == FALSE)
but write
	if(!var)

It is completely foolish to EVER compare a BOOL (or even bool) value to a literal like
TRUE, true, FALSE or false; it is about as silly as writing
	if((a > 0) == true)
A boolean value is ALREADY a testable value and it never makes sense to compare it to a
literal boolean to get, guess what, a boolean value!  In the case of BOOL, it is
dangerous.  

It is not a good idea when doing Windows programming to substitute bool for BOOL anywhere;
it will only lead to problems.  In fact, it is not clear what, if any, advantage bool has
for Windows programmers (note that if you are using std:: or creating operators in C++,
you should use the bool type because this is not Windows programming!)
					joe
On Wed, 16 Jun 2010 09:23:44 -0500, "JCO" <someone@somewhere.com> wrote:

>What exactly is the difference.  This has always bothered me that this is 
>the case.  I've noticed that you cannot substitute one for the other.  I'm 
>guessing TRUE was the original way of doing things before "true" came along? 
>The same case can be made with FALSE vs false.
>
>Thanks
> 
Joseph M. Newcomer [MVP]
email: newcomer@flounder.com
Web: http://www.flounder.com
MVP Tips: http://www.flounder.com/mvp_tips.htm
0
Joseph
6/16/2010 4:11:59 PM
See below...
On Wed, 16 Jun 2010 10:36:08 -0500, Stephen Myers
<""StephenMyers\"@discussions@microsoft.com"> wrote:

>
>JCO wrote:
>> int x = sizeof(true);
>> int y = sizeof(TRUE);
>> 
>> x is 1
>> y is 4
>> Okay so the size if different?
>> I always attempt to use lowercase when possible.
>> 
>> "r norman" <r_s_norman@comcast.net> wrote in message 
>> news:haoh16pjir0uk12jdjdrdih03gi4g0kfgp@4ax.com...
>>> On Wed, 16 Jun 2010 09:23:44 -0500, "JCO" <someone@somewhere.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> What exactly is the difference.  This has always bothered me that 
>>>> this is
>>>> the case.  I've noticed that you cannot substitute one for the 
>>>> other.  I'm
>>>> guessing TRUE was the original way of doing things before "true" came 
>>>> along?
>>>> The same case can be made with FALSE vs false.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Compare sizeof(TRUE) with sizeof(true).
>>>
>>> I believe TRUE/FALSE were introduced before true/false became standard
>>> in C (and then C++).  Once they were well entrenched in the Windows
>>> libraries it would have broken too much old code to change everything
>>> to be consistent.
>>
>
>TRUE and FALSE are the original C way of doing things.
****
No. This has nothing to do with the C language and everything to do with the Windows
header files.
****
>
>Windows defines a BOOL data type which is a 32 integer.  This 
>corresponds to TRUE and FALSE.
****
No, a data type cannot correspond to a value.  The *type* is 32-bit integer.  There are
two defined literal values, TRUE (1) and FALSE(0).
****
>
>You should be able to find #define typedef or enum definitions for BOOL, 
>TRUE and FALSE.
****
windef.h
****
>
>The bool data type is a relatively recent addition and is supported 
>internally by the compiler.  It's size is normally a byte.
****
It exists only in the C++ language at the moment.  It is scheduled to exist in the next C
standard, if that comes out in this century.  The joke is that it used to be called the "C
0x" standard because it was going to be released sometime before 2010.  Now it is known as
the "C xx" standard, the "C 2x0x" standard, and the "C 2xxx" standard, since there seems
to be little hope of any agreement about its release date.  I heard one wag refer to it as
the "C Fry" standard, since it may not come out until Philip J. Fry is defrosted.
				joe
****
>
>HTH
>Steve
Joseph M. Newcomer [MVP]
email: newcomer@flounder.com
Web: http://www.flounder.com
MVP Tips: http://www.flounder.com/mvp_tips.htm
0
Joseph
6/16/2010 4:17:05 PM

"JCO" <someone@somewhere.com> wrote in message 
news:eBBvG#VDLHA.4308@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...

> What exactly is the difference.  This has always bothered me that this is 
> the case.  I've noticed that you cannot substitute one for the other.  I'm 
> guessing TRUE was the original way of doing things before "true" came 
> along? The same case can be made with FALSE vs false.

I'll endorse everything Joe just said, and add that my programs are filled 
with both BOOL and bool.   Anywhere in the vicinity of where a Windows or 
MFC API function is called, then it makes sense to use BOOL.   Elsewhere in 
classes which don't have much contact with the API then bool always seems 
more elegant.    Having both is a mess, but one gets used to it.

Except class/struct member variables: I like to keep my variable boundaries 
neat, so I'd have (say) two members which are BOOL and int, rather than bool 
and int, and thus avoid invisible packing bytes.   In many cases this is 
just control freakery on my part and it doesn't matter at all - but it makes 
me feel happier :-(

Oh, and when I have a function which returns a BOOL I *always* make it 
return TRUE or FALSE.   Never

    return (a==b);

always:

    return (a==b)? TRUE: FALSE;

But of course I never test equality with TRUE or FALSE for all the reasons 
Joe gives, so it's just me being paranoidally neat again.   :-(     Strange 
really, because outside of programming I never have any urge whatever to be 
tidy, or line the knives and forks up, or whatever :-)

Dave
-- 
David Webber
Mozart Music Software
http://www.mozart.co.uk
For discussion and support see
http://www.mozart.co.uk/mozartists/mailinglist.htm 

0
David
6/16/2010 5:21:53 PM
On Wed, 16 Jun 2010 09:23:44 -0500, "JCO" <someone@somewhere.com> wrote:

>What exactly is the difference.  This has always bothered me that this is 
>the case.  I've noticed that you cannot substitute one for the other.  I'm 
>guessing TRUE was the original way of doing things before "true" came along? 
>The same case can be made with FALSE vs false.

Thanks to standard conversions, you almost always *can* substitute the
*constants* one for the other. That's less true for the *types*. To
understand the difference between the constants, start with the types.

The BOOL type is an ancient Windows typedef for int:

typedef int BOOL;
#define TRUE 1
#define FALSE 0

It's basically a code comment used to indicate boolean usage.[*] This was
about the best you could do in the C language of the time, and it's
consistent with the behavior of the relational operators, which yield ints
equal to 1 or 0. Note, however, that all non-zero values are considered
"true" in C and also when using BOOL, not just TRUE. 

In contrast, the C++ bool type is a proper boolean type. The only values a
bool can hold are true and false. In expressions, true converts to 1 and
false to 0, which is why you can normally use true and false
interchangeably with TRUE and FALSE. Going the other way:

bool x = y; // y is non-bool

Assigning a non-bool value to a bool is equivalent to this:

bool x = y != 0;

The result of a relational operator is true or false in C++, so non-zero
values get converted to true, which is done to maintain the C notion that
non-zero means true. This is a big difference between bool and BOOL. If you
were to write:

BOOL x = 5;

Then x would contain the value 5 (still "true", but not TRUE). If you were
to write:

BOOL x = INT64_MAX;

Then x would contain 0 due to integer truncation. However, if you were to
change the type to bool, x would contain true in both cases.

Besides behavioral differences, there is a size difference to consider.
Obviously, sizeof(BOOL) == sizeof(int). However, sizeof(bool) is 1 in
Visual C++ and most other implementations, making it the same size as a
char.

I said earlier that the types are less interchangeable than the constants.
This is true simply because they are different types, which means you can't
pass the address of a bool where the address of a BOOL is required, using a
BOOL parameter to try to override a function that uses a bool parameter
won't work, and so forth.

So how to use all this? When there is a choice (see paragraph above for
cases for which there is not a choice, and also consider consistency when
writing things like Windows API wrappers), use bool instead of BOOL. It's
better behaved and smaller. As for the constants, it is very unlikely you
will run into a situation for which TRUE/FALSE vs. true/false matters, so
use whatever you want. I use true/false pretty much exclusively. If there
were to be a problem, it would be due to ambiguity resulting from something
like stupidly designed function overloads, and it wouldn't be a silent
error.

[*] Except for the GetMessage return value, which uses BOOL for three
states. Then there's the return value for CSingleLock::Lock, which IIRC
uses BOOL when there are three possible outcomes, except it just improperly
converts two of them into TRUE. There may be more BOOL abuse I'm not aware
of.

-- 
Doug Harrison
Visual C++ MVP
0
Doug
6/16/2010 6:00:05 PM
Added comments below...
On Wed, 16 Jun 2010 18:21:53 +0100, "David Webber" <dave@musical-dot-demon-dot-co.uk>
wrote:

>
>
>
>"JCO" <someone@somewhere.com> wrote in message 
>news:eBBvG#VDLHA.4308@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
>
>> What exactly is the difference.  This has always bothered me that this is 
>> the case.  I've noticed that you cannot substitute one for the other.  I'm 
>> guessing TRUE was the original way of doing things before "true" came 
>> along? The same case can be made with FALSE vs false.
>
>I'll endorse everything Joe just said, and add that my programs are filled 
>with both BOOL and bool.   Anywhere in the vicinity of where a Windows or 
>MFC API function is called, then it makes sense to use BOOL.   Elsewhere in 
>classes which don't have much contact with the API then bool always seems 
>more elegant.    Having both is a mess, but one gets used to it.
>
>Except class/struct member variables: I like to keep my variable boundaries 
>neat, so I'd have (say) two members which are BOOL and int, rather than bool 
>and int, and thus avoid invisible packing bytes.   In many cases this is 
>just control freakery on my part and it doesn't matter at all - but it makes 
>me feel happier :-(
>
>Oh, and when I have a function which returns a BOOL I *always* make it 
>return TRUE or FALSE.   Never
>
>    return (a==b);
>
>always:
>
>    return (a==b)? TRUE: FALSE;
****
I know this is a bit over-compulsive, but I write the same kind of code for the same
reasons.  I will also write
	button.SetCheck(value ? BST_CHECKED : BST_UNCHECKED);

I have no idea why Microsoft even bothers to tell the checkbox button values of 0, 1 or 2
instead of giving the symbolic names.  The number of times I've seen code of the form
	button.SetCheck(value);
is amazing.  Back in WIndows 3.1, and value not 0 or 2 was treated as 1 (and for
non-tri-state buttons, 2 was treated as 1), but in 32-bit Windows (including the imitation
operating systems of the 9x family) the value had to be 0, 1 or 2.  I used to spend time
fixing code that had worked under Windows 3.1 because 'vaue' could be anything and often
was.  And clients would say "We ported this working code to 32-bit and it stopped working"
and I had to explain "You ported code that was never right from a system that worked
incorrectly to a system that worked correctly".
*****
>
>But of course I never test equality with TRUE or FALSE for all the reasons 
>Joe gives, so it's just me being paranoidally neat again.   :-(     Strange 
>really, because outside of programming I never have any urge whatever to be 
>tidy, or line the knives and forks up, or whatever :-)
****
Any good programmer could be successfully accused of having obsessive-compulsive disorder
(OCD).  A friend of mine, one of the very best programmers I know, related once that he
was taking medication to help his OCD, and I pointed out that was what made him one of the
best of the best.  He said "Yes, but it was spilling into everyday life".  Like you, I am
not overly compulsive in most other areas of my life; I don't wash my hands 100 times a
day, or sort my sock drawer by spectral color, or things like that; my office is a total
shambles.  But I really do apply tidiness guidelines to my code.  And in that, I am
definitely obsessive.
				joe
*****
>
>Dave
Joseph M. Newcomer [MVP]
email: newcomer@flounder.com
Web: http://www.flounder.com
MVP Tips: http://www.flounder.com/mvp_tips.htm
0
Joseph
6/16/2010 7:55:30 PM
On 16/06/2010 13:17, Joseph M. Newcomer wrote:
> See below...
> On Wed, 16 Jun 2010 10:36:08 -0500, Stephen Myers
> <""StephenMyers\"@discussions@microsoft.com">  wrote:
>
>>
>> JCO wrote:
>>> int x = sizeof(true);
>>> int y = sizeof(TRUE);
>>>
>>> x is 1
>>> y is 4
>>> Okay so the size if different?
>>> I always attempt to use lowercase when possible.
>>>
>>> "r norman"<r_s_norman@comcast.net>  wrote in message
>>> news:haoh16pjir0uk12jdjdrdih03gi4g0kfgp@4ax.com...
>>>> On Wed, 16 Jun 2010 09:23:44 -0500, "JCO"<someone@somewhere.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> What exactly is the difference.  This has always bothered me that
>>>>> this is
>>>>> the case.  I've noticed that you cannot substitute one for the
>>>>> other.  I'm
>>>>> guessing TRUE was the original way of doing things before "true" came
>>>>> along?
>>>>> The same case can be made with FALSE vs false.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Compare sizeof(TRUE) with sizeof(true).
>>>>
>>>> I believe TRUE/FALSE were introduced before true/false became standard
>>>> in C (and then C++).  Once they were well entrenched in the Windows
>>>> libraries it would have broken too much old code to change everything
>>>> to be consistent.
>>>
>>
>> TRUE and FALSE are the original C way of doing things.
> ****
> No. This has nothing to do with the C language and everything to do with the Windows
> header files.
> ****
>>
>> Windows defines a BOOL data type which is a 32 integer.  This
>> corresponds to TRUE and FALSE.
> ****
> No, a data type cannot correspond to a value.  The *type* is 32-bit integer.  There are
> two defined literal values, TRUE (1) and FALSE(0).
> ****
>>
>> You should be able to find #define typedef or enum definitions for BOOL,
>> TRUE and FALSE.
> ****
> windef.h
> ****
>>
>> The bool data type is a relatively recent addition and is supported
>> internally by the compiler.  It's size is normally a byte.
> ****
> It exists only in the C++ language at the moment.  It is scheduled to exist in the next C
> standard, if that comes out in this century.  The joke is that it used to be called the "C
> 0x" standard because it was going to be released sometime before 2010.  Now it is known as
> the "C xx" standard, the "C 2x0x" standard, and the "C 2xxx" standard, since there seems
> to be little hope of any agreement about its release date.  I heard one wag refer to it as
> the "C Fry" standard, since it may not come out until Philip J. Fry is defrosted.
> 				joe
> ****

C99 already has a boolean type: _Bool (see C99 specification 6.25, 
6.3.1.2, 6.4.1 and 6.7.2)
It also has a group of macros to manage the bool behavior (bool, false 
and true, see stdbool.h header, C99 specification 7.16)

Regards

-- 
Cholo Lennon
Bs.As.
ARG



>>
>> HTH
>> Steve
> Joseph M. Newcomer [MVP]
> email: newcomer@flounder.com
> Web: http://www.flounder.com
> MVP Tips: http://www.flounder.com/mvp_tips.htm


0
Cholo
6/16/2010 9:01:29 PM
Thanks.  I thought that had been delayed to the C 0x spec.  Since we don't have C99
compilers from Microsoft, I never noticed.
				joe

On Wed, 16 Jun 2010 18:01:29 -0300, Cholo Lennon <chololennon@hotmail.com> wrote:

>On 16/06/2010 13:17, Joseph M. Newcomer wrote:
>> See below...
>> On Wed, 16 Jun 2010 10:36:08 -0500, Stephen Myers
>> <""StephenMyers\"@discussions@microsoft.com">  wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> JCO wrote:
>>>> int x = sizeof(true);
>>>> int y = sizeof(TRUE);
>>>>
>>>> x is 1
>>>> y is 4
>>>> Okay so the size if different?
>>>> I always attempt to use lowercase when possible.
>>>>
>>>> "r norman"<r_s_norman@comcast.net>  wrote in message
>>>> news:haoh16pjir0uk12jdjdrdih03gi4g0kfgp@4ax.com...
>>>>> On Wed, 16 Jun 2010 09:23:44 -0500, "JCO"<someone@somewhere.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> What exactly is the difference.  This has always bothered me that
>>>>>> this is
>>>>>> the case.  I've noticed that you cannot substitute one for the
>>>>>> other.  I'm
>>>>>> guessing TRUE was the original way of doing things before "true" came
>>>>>> along?
>>>>>> The same case can be made with FALSE vs false.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Compare sizeof(TRUE) with sizeof(true).
>>>>>
>>>>> I believe TRUE/FALSE were introduced before true/false became standard
>>>>> in C (and then C++).  Once they were well entrenched in the Windows
>>>>> libraries it would have broken too much old code to change everything
>>>>> to be consistent.
>>>>
>>>
>>> TRUE and FALSE are the original C way of doing things.
>> ****
>> No. This has nothing to do with the C language and everything to do with the Windows
>> header files.
>> ****
>>>
>>> Windows defines a BOOL data type which is a 32 integer.  This
>>> corresponds to TRUE and FALSE.
>> ****
>> No, a data type cannot correspond to a value.  The *type* is 32-bit integer.  There are
>> two defined literal values, TRUE (1) and FALSE(0).
>> ****
>>>
>>> You should be able to find #define typedef or enum definitions for BOOL,
>>> TRUE and FALSE.
>> ****
>> windef.h
>> ****
>>>
>>> The bool data type is a relatively recent addition and is supported
>>> internally by the compiler.  It's size is normally a byte.
>> ****
>> It exists only in the C++ language at the moment.  It is scheduled to exist in the next C
>> standard, if that comes out in this century.  The joke is that it used to be called the "C
>> 0x" standard because it was going to be released sometime before 2010.  Now it is known as
>> the "C xx" standard, the "C 2x0x" standard, and the "C 2xxx" standard, since there seems
>> to be little hope of any agreement about its release date.  I heard one wag refer to it as
>> the "C Fry" standard, since it may not come out until Philip J. Fry is defrosted.
>> 				joe
>> ****
>
>C99 already has a boolean type: _Bool (see C99 specification 6.25, 
>6.3.1.2, 6.4.1 and 6.7.2)
>It also has a group of macros to manage the bool behavior (bool, false 
>and true, see stdbool.h header, C99 specification 7.16)
>
>Regards
Joseph M. Newcomer [MVP]
email: newcomer@flounder.com
Web: http://www.flounder.com
MVP Tips: http://www.flounder.com/mvp_tips.htm
0
Joseph
6/17/2010 12:55:08 AM
On 16 Jun., Joseph M. Newcomer wrote:
> Any good programmer could be successfully accused of having obsessive-com=
pulsive disorder
> (OCD). =A0A friend of mine, one of the very best programmers I know, rela=
ted once that he
> was taking medication to help his OCD, and I pointed out that was what ma=
de him one of the
> best of the best. =A0He said "Yes, but it was spilling into everyday life=
". =A0Like you, I am
> not overly compulsive in most other areas of my life; I don't wash my han=
ds 100 times a
> day, or sort my sock drawer by spectral color, or things like that; my of=
fice is a total
> shambles. =A0But I really do apply tidiness guidelines to my code. =A0And=
 in that, I am
> definitely obsessive.

Except when it comes to top-posting ;-) (sorry, could not resist)

Thanks for putting a name to something that I always felt, but could
never express in words. I guess this OCD streak may be the reason why
I studied computer science instead of physics (I mean how should one
get things done when your material sometimes behaves like a wave and
sometimes like a particle?) Computer science offers fewer surprises
than physics (with regard to new phenomenons) but in return you'll
certainly get the feeling that everything is neat and proper (which is
what people suffering from OCD probably need).

Regards,
Stuart
0
Stuart
6/17/2010 6:33:25 AM
The arguments about top-posting vs. bottom-posting vs. anything else are all silly.  My
reply appears where my reply appears.  I refuse to deal with profound silliness.  I only
obsess over technical issues that *matter*.

One variant of OCD is characterized by meticulous attention to detail.

There is a silly psychological test that tries to tell you about your personality type. It
contains silly questions like "Do you care about the big picture or little details?" and
of course the answer is "yes".  In fact, I was halfway through it when I started laughing.
EVERY either-or question was answerable by "yes".  As a programmer, I *have* to care about
the little details.  But as a software architect and designer, I *have* to care about the
"big picture".  Every question I'd hit had that property.  It was clear that the questions
had never been designed with a programmer in mind...
				joe

On Wed, 16 Jun 2010 23:33:25 -0700 (PDT), Stuart Redmann <DerTopper@web.de> wrote:

>On 16 Jun., Joseph M. Newcomer wrote:
>> Any good programmer could be successfully accused of having obsessive-compulsive disorder
>> (OCD). �A friend of mine, one of the very best programmers I know, related once that he
>> was taking medication to help his OCD, and I pointed out that was what made him one of the
>> best of the best. �He said "Yes, but it was spilling into everyday life". �Like you, I am
>> not overly compulsive in most other areas of my life; I don't wash my hands 100 times a
>> day, or sort my sock drawer by spectral color, or things like that; my office is a total
>> shambles. �But I really do apply tidiness guidelines to my code. �And in that, I am
>> definitely obsessive.
>
>Except when it comes to top-posting ;-) (sorry, could not resist)
>
>Thanks for putting a name to something that I always felt, but could
>never express in words. I guess this OCD streak may be the reason why
>I studied computer science instead of physics (I mean how should one
>get things done when your material sometimes behaves like a wave and
>sometimes like a particle?) Computer science offers fewer surprises
>than physics (with regard to new phenomenons) but in return you'll
>certainly get the feeling that everything is neat and proper (which is
>what people suffering from OCD probably need).
>
>Regards,
>Stuart
Joseph M. Newcomer [MVP]
email: newcomer@flounder.com
Web: http://www.flounder.com
MVP Tips: http://www.flounder.com/mvp_tips.htm
0
Joseph
6/17/2010 1:40:03 PM

"Stuart Redmann" <DerTopper@web.de> wrote in message 
news:82b0294d-3ff3-4b5d-9f9e-629a6bdaffe7@a30g2000yqn.googlegroups.com...
> On 16 Jun., Joseph M. Newcomer wrote:

> ... I guess this OCD streak may be the reason why
> I studied computer science instead of physics (I mean how should one
> get things done when your material sometimes behaves like a wave and
> sometimes like a particle?)

Being precise and tidy is a good route to understanding how things work in 
physics as well as programming.

Wave/particle duality is a case in point.   Precisely speaking: the 
probability amplitude for finding a particle at a given point is a function 
characterised as a wave.  Nothing inconsistent about that.   The less 
precise version:  "It's a wave AND a particle" is just untidy and being 
untidy leads to a lack of understanding, but may be good for making the 
uninitiated go "wow!".    Pedantry (if not OCD) helps in physics too, though 
it may not impress television audiences.

Dave
Sometime elementary particle theorist.

 

0
David
6/17/2010 2:22:42 PM
On 17/06/2010 16:22, David Webber wrote:

> Wave/particle duality is a case in point. Precisely speaking: the
> probability amplitude for finding a particle at a given point is a
> function characterised as a wave.

> Dave
> Sometime elementary particle theorist.

Cool!

That is "rocket science"!
(Computer Science is easier :)

Giovanni


0
Giovanni
6/17/2010 2:35:22 PM

"Giovanni Dicanio" <giovanniDOTdicanio@REMOVEMEgmail.com> wrote in message 
news:uHRiXpiDLHA.4636@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...
> On 17/06/2010 16:22, David Webber wrote:
>
>> Wave/particle duality is a case in point. Precisely speaking: the
>> probability amplitude for finding a particle at a given point is a
>> function characterised as a wave.
>
>> Dave
>> Sometime elementary particle theorist.
>
> Cool!
>
> That is "rocket science"!
> (Computer Science is easier :)

The thing about rocket science is that it isn't really rocket science you 
know :-)    CMFCToolBar - now *that's* rocket science!   At least today it 
is, and the rocket is pointing at my feet  :-(

Dave
-- 
David Webber
Mozart Music Software
http://www.mozart.co.uk
For discussion and support see
http://www.mozart.co.uk/mozartists/mailinglist.htm 

0
David
6/17/2010 3:50:51 PM
My S.O. has a degree in "Library Science" (and is a professor in the department).  I have
been at parties where people talk about "Library Science", and I use the line "any field
that has to label itself a science probably isn't" at which point they challenge me,
"What's your degree in?" to which I reply "Computer Science")

Characterization of languages:

C - gives you all the power you need, including the ability to shoot yourself in the foot

Assembler - lets you shoot the disk in the foot, after which your manager shoots you

C++ - The problem is that between foot objects, foot pointers, and foot references, you
can't figure out whether you have shot yourself in the foot or virtually shot your virtual
foot

FORTRAN - Lets you shoot one toe in each DO-loop iteration

Pascal - The type system prevents you from confusing guns with feet.  Unfortunately, it
prevents you from doing anything else useful.

Java - Write once, shoot in foot everywhere

C# - Your feet are automatically garbage collected when they have enough holes in them

Visual Basic - Impossible to shoot yourself in the foot, or do much else interesting, but
you get a Really Cool User Interface

Ada - The DoD marches in a squad of soldiers, they put you up against the wall, and *they*
shoot you in the foot

APL - You hear a loud noise, you look down and you see a hole in your foot, but you can't
remember enough linear algebra to figure out what happened

				joe
On Thu, 17 Jun 2010 16:50:51 +0100, "David Webber" <dave@musical-dot-demon-dot-co.uk>
wrote:

>
>
>"Giovanni Dicanio" <giovanniDOTdicanio@REMOVEMEgmail.com> wrote in message 
>news:uHRiXpiDLHA.4636@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...
>> On 17/06/2010 16:22, David Webber wrote:
>>
>>> Wave/particle duality is a case in point. Precisely speaking: the
>>> probability amplitude for finding a particle at a given point is a
>>> function characterised as a wave.
>>
>>> Dave
>>> Sometime elementary particle theorist.
>>
>> Cool!
>>
>> That is "rocket science"!
>> (Computer Science is easier :)
>
>The thing about rocket science is that it isn't really rocket science you 
>know :-)    CMFCToolBar - now *that's* rocket science!   At least today it 
>is, and the rocket is pointing at my feet  :-(
>
>Dave
Joseph M. Newcomer [MVP]
email: newcomer@flounder.com
Web: http://www.flounder.com
MVP Tips: http://www.flounder.com/mvp_tips.htm
0
Joseph
6/17/2010 7:20:21 PM
Joe: You should put this post in your web site!

Giovanni


On 17/06/2010 21:20, Joseph M. Newcomer wrote:

> My S.O. has a degree in "Library Science" (and is a professor in the department).  I have
> been at parties where people talk about "Library Science", and I use the line "any field
> that has to label itself a science probably isn't" at which point they challenge me,
> "What's your degree in?" to which I reply "Computer Science")
>
> Characterization of languages:
>
> C - gives you all the power you need, including the ability to shoot yourself in the foot
>
> Assembler - lets you shoot the disk in the foot, after which your manager shoots you
>
> C++ - The problem is that between foot objects, foot pointers, and foot references, you
> can't figure out whether you have shot yourself in the foot or virtually shot your virtual
> foot
>
> FORTRAN - Lets you shoot one toe in each DO-loop iteration
>
> Pascal - The type system prevents you from confusing guns with feet.  Unfortunately, it
> prevents you from doing anything else useful.
>
> Java - Write once, shoot in foot everywhere
>
> C# - Your feet are automatically garbage collected when they have enough holes in them
>
> Visual Basic - Impossible to shoot yourself in the foot, or do much else interesting, but
> you get a Really Cool User Interface
>
> Ada - The DoD marches in a squad of soldiers, they put you up against the wall, and *they*
> shoot you in the foot
>
> APL - You hear a loud noise, you look down and you see a hole in your foot, but you can't
> remember enough linear algebra to figure out what happened
>
> 				joe
> On Thu, 17 Jun 2010 16:50:51 +0100, "David Webber"<dave@musical-dot-demon-dot-co.uk>
> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> "Giovanni Dicanio"<giovanniDOTdicanio@REMOVEMEgmail.com>  wrote in message
>> news:uHRiXpiDLHA.4636@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...
>>> On 17/06/2010 16:22, David Webber wrote:
>>>
>>>> Wave/particle duality is a case in point. Precisely speaking: the
>>>> probability amplitude for finding a particle at a given point is a
>>>> function characterised as a wave.
>>>
>>>> Dave
>>>> Sometime elementary particle theorist.
>>>
>>> Cool!
>>>
>>> That is "rocket science"!
>>> (Computer Science is easier :)
>>
>> The thing about rocket science is that it isn't really rocket science you
>> know :-)    CMFCToolBar - now *that's* rocket science!   At least today it
>> is, and the rocket is pointing at my feet  :-(
>>
>> Dave
> Joseph M. Newcomer [MVP]
> email: newcomer@flounder.com
> Web: http://www.flounder.com
> MVP Tips: http://www.flounder.com/mvp_tips.htm

0
Giovanni
6/17/2010 9:39:28 PM
On 17/06/2010 17:50, David Webber wrote:

> The thing about rocket science is that it isn't really rocket science
> you know :-) CMFCToolBar - now *that's* rocket science! At least today
> it is, and the rocket is pointing at my feet :-(

If you can figure out Schrodinger's equation and quantum mechanics you 
can figure out MFC classes of course :)

Giovanni

0
Giovanni
6/17/2010 9:41:17 PM
On Jun 17, 9:20=A0pm, Joseph M. Newcomer <newco...@flounder.com> wrote:
> My S.O. has a degree in "Library Science" (and is a professor in the depa=
rtment). =A0I have
> been at parties where people talk about "Library Science", and I use the =
line "any field
> that has to label itself a science probably isn't" at which point they ch=
allenge me,
> "What's your degree in?" to which I reply "Computer Science")
>
> Characterization of languages:
>
> C - gives you all the power you need, including the ability to shoot your=
self in the foot
>
> Assembler - lets you shoot the disk in the foot, after which your manager=
 shoots you
>
> C++ - The problem is that between foot objects, foot pointers, and foot r=
eferences, you
> can't figure out whether you have shot yourself in the foot or virtually =
shot your virtual
> foot
>
> FORTRAN - Lets you shoot one toe in each DO-loop iteration
>
> Pascal - The type system prevents you from confusing guns with feet. =A0U=
nfortunately, it
> prevents you from doing anything else useful.
>
> Java - Write once, shoot in foot everywhere
>
> C# - Your feet are automatically garbage collected when they have enough =
holes in them
>
> Visual Basic - Impossible to shoot yourself in the foot, or do much else =
interesting, but
> you get a Really Cool User Interface
>
> Ada - The DoD marches in a squad of soldiers, they put you up against the=
 wall, and *they*
> shoot you in the foot
>
> APL - You hear a loud noise, you look down and you see a hole in your foo=
t, but you can't
> remember enough linear algebra to figure out what happened

Hey, I love this!

Kinda unfair to Pascal, though. I've worked with a couple of several
implementations (Borland's and "free") aimed at real world and they
all had decent straitjacket-liberation mechanisms. I've honestly come
to consider such Pascal a better C. But never though that "object"
Pascal, albeit nice, was better than C++.

Kinda too fair to VB - you actually get really _bad_ UI, more often
than not.

Java and C# - right on the money. Ada - most hilarious.

;-)

Goran.
0
Goran
6/18/2010 6:32:08 AM
Isn't that the one where "this code has a bug in it, or not, but until you look at it, it
exists in a state where it both has and doesn't have bugs.  When you look at it, the
probability wave collapses and you either have code with a bug or without a bug"

Sort of like a recent thread of posts about someone whose code was perfect until
inspected...
				joe

On Thu, 17 Jun 2010 23:41:17 +0200, Giovanni Dicanio
<giovanniDOTdicanio@REMOVEMEgmail.com> wrote:

>On 17/06/2010 17:50, David Webber wrote:
>
>> The thing about rocket science is that it isn't really rocket science
>> you know :-) CMFCToolBar - now *that's* rocket science! At least today
>> it is, and the rocket is pointing at my feet :-(
>
>If you can figure out Schrodinger's equation and quantum mechanics you 
>can figure out MFC classes of course :)
>
>Giovanni
Joseph M. Newcomer [MVP]
email: newcomer@flounder.com
Web: http://www.flounder.com
MVP Tips: http://www.flounder.com/mvp_tips.htm
0
Joseph
6/18/2010 2:09:27 PM
On 18/06/2010 16:09, Joseph M. Newcomer wrote:

> Sort of like a recent thread of posts about someone whose code was perfect until
> inspected...

Yes, Joe: the Heisenbug!

:)

Giovanni
0
Giovanni
6/18/2010 6:06:47 PM
Actually, that term is a misnomer; it refers to a specific situation where, when you go to
inspect the bug (with the debugger) the bug is gone, and when you run without the
debugger, the bug appears.  Since it is completely deterministic in this regard,the
well-established use of "Heisenbug" is actually incorrect.  The probability wave has
collapsed.
					joe

On Fri, 18 Jun 2010 20:06:47 +0200, Giovanni Dicanio
<giovanniDOTdicanio@REMOVEMEgmail.com> wrote:

>On 18/06/2010 16:09, Joseph M. Newcomer wrote:
>
>> Sort of like a recent thread of posts about someone whose code was perfect until
>> inspected...
>
>Yes, Joe: the Heisenbug!
>
>:)
>
>Giovanni
Joseph M. Newcomer [MVP]
email: newcomer@flounder.com
Web: http://www.flounder.com
MVP Tips: http://www.flounder.com/mvp_tips.htm
0
Joseph
6/18/2010 6:44:15 PM

"Giovanni Dicanio" <giovanniDOTdicanio@REMOVEMEgmail.com> wrote in message 
news:O7pkXXmDLHA.4636@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...
> On 17/06/2010 17:50, David Webber wrote:
>
>> The thing about rocket science is that it isn't really rocket science
>> you know :-) CMFCToolBar - now *that's* rocket science! At least today
>> it is, and the rocket is pointing at my feet :-(
>
> If you can figure out Schrodinger's equation and quantum mechanics you can 
> figure out MFC classes of course :)

You know where you are with Quantum Mechanics.  Well, either that or how 
fast you're going. :-)

The point is that  there's DOCUMENTATION for Schroedinger's Equation and 
Quantum Mechanics.   These new CMFC.... classes don't seem to have any.

I now have a dozen or so working CMFCToolBar toolbars - at least working in 
the sense I can customise them.  (I haven't plugged the command handlers in 
yet.)   But I have more questions the further I get into them.   I'll ask 
another when I get frustrated enough.

Dave
-- 
David Webber
Mozart Music Software
http://www.mozart.co.uk
For discussion and support see
http://www.mozart.co.uk/mozartists/mailinglist.htm 

0
David
6/18/2010 11:57:29 PM
WHAT!!!! You expect DOCUMENTATION????

Don't you know about the New Standard for Documentation?

"We don't DO no stinkin' documentation!"

				joe

On Sat, 19 Jun 2010 00:57:29 +0100, "David Webber" <dave@musical-dot-demon-dot-co.uk>
wrote:

>
>
>"Giovanni Dicanio" <giovanniDOTdicanio@REMOVEMEgmail.com> wrote in message 
>news:O7pkXXmDLHA.4636@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...
>> On 17/06/2010 17:50, David Webber wrote:
>>
>>> The thing about rocket science is that it isn't really rocket science
>>> you know :-) CMFCToolBar - now *that's* rocket science! At least today
>>> it is, and the rocket is pointing at my feet :-(
>>
>> If you can figure out Schrodinger's equation and quantum mechanics you can 
>> figure out MFC classes of course :)
>
>You know where you are with Quantum Mechanics.  Well, either that or how 
>fast you're going. :-)
>
>The point is that  there's DOCUMENTATION for Schroedinger's Equation and 
>Quantum Mechanics.   These new CMFC.... classes don't seem to have any.
>
>I now have a dozen or so working CMFCToolBar toolbars - at least working in 
>the sense I can customise them.  (I haven't plugged the command handlers in 
>yet.)   But I have more questions the further I get into them.   I'll ask 
>another when I get frustrated enough.
>
>Dave
Joseph M. Newcomer [MVP]
email: newcomer@flounder.com
Web: http://www.flounder.com
MVP Tips: http://www.flounder.com/mvp_tips.htm
0
Joseph
6/19/2010 12:36:19 AM
In article <k59k16t0qafi5iceog2mdeq8keqjvfn52j@4ax.com>, 
newcomer@flounder.com says...

[ ... ]
 
> There is a silly psychological test that tries to tell you about your personality type. It
> contains silly questions like "Do you care about the big picture or little details?" and
> of course the answer is "yes".  In fact, I was halfway through it when I started laughing.
> EVERY either-or question was answerable by "yes".  As a programmer, I *have* to care about
> the little details.  But as a software architect and designer, I *have* to care about the
> "big picture".  Every question I'd hit had that property.  It was clear that the questions
> had never been designed with a programmer in mind...

At least in my experience, the defining characteristic of a person 
who can program is the ability to think (comfortably) at widely 
varying levels of abstraction, and shift from one to another quickly, 
easily and fluidly.

For better or worse, however, that ability seems to be so rare among 
most of the rest of the population that most don't consider even the 
possibility that it could exist.

-- 
    Later,
    Jerry.
0
Jerry
6/19/2010 6:18:23 AM
Reply:

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I have shares in Kmart from before and durning bankrupcy (KM)... then Kmart nullified those shares and came out with new shares as KMRTQ. Everytime I want to update my MM2003 it updates my KM shares to the price of the KMRTQ. Is there any way around that? I still have the KM shares since Kmart may eventually pay out the KM shareholders (we are last on the list). Is this the punishment for having bought Kmart? Jon In microsoft.public.money, Jonathan B. Jung wrote: >I have shares in Kmart from before and durning bankrupcy (KM)... then Kmart >nullified those shares and came out wit...

Quotewerks Vs MSCRM
Hello all, Can you provide me with instances where you would see MSCRM for storing your products and price lists etc suitable and where QW would be much better. I dont really use QW but we have it inhouse and we are moving across to MSCRM and would like to be able to tell customers who want to use it for quoting etc which would be better I understand that this is a question that I might get a biased answer for but all replies with expierence with mscrm for storing products, price lists good or bad would be greatly welcomed. thanks Una I have used Quotewerks for several years, starti...

how to i create a comparision chart of target vs achieved.
I want to create a chart of target vs achieved. Target is annual target and achievements in month. Vikas Gupta wrote: > > I want to create a chart of target vs achieved. Target is annual target > and achievements in month. Target vs. achieved *what*? Funds? Solicitations? Widgets? Pickled herring? What kind of chart did you have in mind? Column? Pie? Line graph? Combination (like maybe a horizontal line for the target and bars for each month's "achievement")? How are your data arranged in the worksheet? How do you want them displayed on your chart? You have given ...

Formula is true if proportion of range is true
Trying for true / yes result if at least 50% of range meets criteria eg =IF(AND O2="yes",H2<>"",I2<>"",J2<>"",K2<>"",L2<>"",M2<>"",N2<>""),"yes","no") where O2 must be yes and input is required for at least 4 out of 7 cells between H2 and I2 thank you =IF(AND(O2="yes",COUNTA(H2:N2)>3),"True","False") Vaya con Dios, Chuck, CABGx3 "nussbaum" <nussbaum@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message news:F7...