Question about how VB6 uses dependincy files

I seem to remember a discussion here about putting ocx and other files in 
the program folder instead of in the system folder and that the vb program 
would find them there. I was not able to find what I was looking for so 
thought that I would ask the experts here, to go over it again. I tried this 
once and it did not work and I moved the dependent files to the system 
folder, but I may have been trying to do it wrong. :-) Not unusual for me.

1) For instance if I put the sqlite dll in the program folder will the vb 
program look for it there first? If so will it load it for db use and does 
it have to be registered in that location or not?

2) Most of the programs I write are for Windows 2000 forward and the vb 
runtime files are already on the computer so I am only talking about other 
files that my program might need to use. I thought it would be nice to put 
them all into the program folder and then they could be removed on 
un-install without leaving anything on the users computer that was not there 
before. I guess if it was this easy we would not have had dll hell. :-)

3) In one program I used an ocx called FastForm which resized all controls 
to fit on a form after it was resized. It seems to me that it did not work 
when I tried to install it into the program folder, but maybe it needed some 
other files to work that would have been found in the system folder.

I guess you can tell that I do not clearly understand how vb works, but have 
learned a lot in this newsgroup. I guess what I am trying to do is similar 
to a side-by-side install, using the programs own folder.

Thanks in advance,

Norm 

0
Norm
2/13/2010 11:13:47 PM
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"Norm" <NormF4@spoof.com> wrote in message
news:00B02457-E830-49CF-BE24-89FDDA494B80@microsoft.com...
> I seem to remember a discussion here about putting ocx and other files in
> the program folder instead of in the system folder and that the vb program
> would find them there. I was not able to find what I was looking for so
> thought that I would ask the experts here, to go over it again. I tried
this
> once and it did not work and I moved the dependent files to the system
> folder, but I may have been trying to do it wrong. :-) Not unusual for me.
>
> 1) For instance if I put the sqlite dll in the program folder will the vb
> program look for it there first? If so will it load it for db use and does
> it have to be registered in that location or not?
>
> 2) Most of the programs I write are for Windows 2000 forward and the vb
> runtime files are already on the computer so I am only talking about other
> files that my program might need to use. I thought it would be nice to put
> them all into the program folder and then they could be removed on
> un-install without leaving anything on the users computer that was not
there
> before. I guess if it was this easy we would not have had dll hell. :-)
>
> 3) In one program I used an ocx called FastForm which resized all controls
> to fit on a form after it was resized. It seems to me that it did not work
> when I tried to install it into the program folder, but maybe it needed
some
> other files to work that would have been found in the system folder.
>
> I guess you can tell that I do not clearly understand how vb works, but
have
> learned a lot in this newsgroup. I guess what I am trying to do is similar
> to a side-by-side install, using the programs own folder.
>
> Thanks in advance,
>

Olaf will be along shortly to help with any specific SQLite questions.

But "does not work" is not very helpful.

1) In general an ActiveX component always needs to be registered and is
available for universal use from any location (barring permission problems
with that location.)
2) Ocx or Controls are generally assumed to be 'shareable' thus most
installs will place them in a central location. However, they too are
ActiveX components and will run from the location where they have been
registered.
3) It is best to have one and only of any ActiveX component present on a
box, although only the one that is registered is likely to be called.

Any components that are not 'shareable' can be placed in the Program Folder.

4) If you have been piddling around with ActiveX components, moving them
here and there, registering/unregistering, &etc. Make sure you periodically
run a good Registery Cleaner and ferret out any duplicates (and don't over
look the Recycle Bin.)

-ralph


0
Ralph
2/14/2010 12:19:56 AM

"Ralph" <nt_consulting64@yahoo.com> wrote in message 
news:eMiFYwQrKHA.3344@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...
>
> "Norm" <NormF4@spoof.com> wrote in message
> news:00B02457-E830-49CF-BE24-89FDDA494B80@microsoft.com...
>> I seem to remember a discussion here about putting ocx and other files in
>> the program folder instead of in the system folder and that the vb 
>> program
>> would find them there. I was not able to find what I was looking for so
>> thought that I would ask the experts here, to go over it again. I tried
> this
>> once and it did not work and I moved the dependent files to the system
>> folder, but I may have been trying to do it wrong. :-) Not unusual for 
>> me.
>>
>> 1) For instance if I put the sqlite dll in the program folder will the vb
>> program look for it there first? If so will it load it for db use and 
>> does
>> it have to be registered in that location or not?
>>
>> 2) Most of the programs I write are for Windows 2000 forward and the vb
>> runtime files are already on the computer so I am only talking about 
>> other
>> files that my program might need to use. I thought it would be nice to 
>> put
>> them all into the program folder and then they could be removed on
>> un-install without leaving anything on the users computer that was not
> there
>> before. I guess if it was this easy we would not have had dll hell. :-)
>>
>> 3) In one program I used an ocx called FastForm which resized all 
>> controls
>> to fit on a form after it was resized. It seems to me that it did not 
>> work
>> when I tried to install it into the program folder, but maybe it needed
> some
>> other files to work that would have been found in the system folder.
>>
>> I guess you can tell that I do not clearly understand how vb works, but
> have
>> learned a lot in this newsgroup. I guess what I am trying to do is 
>> similar
>> to a side-by-side install, using the programs own folder.
>>
>> Thanks in advance,
>>
>
> Olaf will be along shortly to help with any specific SQLite questions.
>
> But "does not work" is not very helpful.
>
> 1) In general an ActiveX component always needs to be registered and is
> available for universal use from any location (barring permission problems
> with that location.)
> 2) Ocx or Controls are generally assumed to be 'shareable' thus most
> installs will place them in a central location. However, they too are
> ActiveX components and will run from the location where they have been
> registered.
> 3) It is best to have one and only of any ActiveX component present on a
> box, although only the one that is registered is likely to be called.
>
> Any components that are not 'shareable' can be placed in the Program 
> Folder.
>
> 4) If you have been piddling around with ActiveX components, moving them
> here and there, registering/unregistering, &etc. Make sure you 
> periodically
> run a good Registery Cleaner and ferret out any duplicates (and don't over
> look the Recycle Bin.)
>
> -ralph
>
>

Thanks Ralph,

I guess that was what I was missing is that they were considered sharable 
and I was trying to just put them into the program folder without 
registering them, as I thought (wrongly) that vb would use whatever was in 
its own folder. I guess that would be too simple and easy. :-)

I don't move registered components, but did not register them when installed 
along with the program executable. I assume that is why they did not work. 
It has been awhile since I tried this and am unable to give you the exact 
error message, which would be better.

This is one of those things that my mind goes over while I am trying to 
sleep. :-) Drives me nuts sometimes.

Thanks again,
Norm 

0
Norm
2/14/2010 1:01:26 AM

"Norm" <NormF4@spoof.com> wrote in message 
news:00B02457-E830-49CF-BE24-89FDDA494B80@microsoft.com...
> I seem to remember a discussion here about putting ocx and other files in 
> the program folder instead of in the system folder and that the vb program 
> would find them there. I was not able to find what I was looking for so 
> thought that I would ask the experts here, to go over it again. I tried 
> this once and it did not work and I moved the dependent files to the 
> system folder, but I may have been trying to do it wrong. :-) Not unusual 
> for me.
>
> 1) For instance if I put the sqlite dll in the program folder will the vb 
> program look for it there first? If so will it load it for db use and does 
> it have to be registered in that location or not?
>
> 2) Most of the programs I write are for Windows 2000 forward and the vb 
> runtime files are already on the computer so I am only talking about other 
> files that my program might need to use. I thought it would be nice to put 
> them all into the program folder and then they could be removed on 
> un-install without leaving anything on the users computer that was not 
> there before. I guess if it was this easy we would not have had dll hell. 
> :-)
>
> 3) In one program I used an ocx called FastForm which resized all controls 
> to fit on a form after it was resized. It seems to me that it did not work 
> when I tried to install it into the program folder, but maybe it needed 
> some other files to work that would have been found in the system folder.
>
> I guess you can tell that I do not clearly understand how vb works, but 
> have learned a lot in this newsgroup. I guess what I am trying to do is 
> similar to a side-by-side install, using the programs own folder.
>

To expand a bit on what Ralph has already said...

Basically, if the DLL or OCX (I'm going to use the term "component" from 
here on out for both ActiveX DLLs and OCXs) is not specifically for use ONLY 
by the app, it should NOT go in the app's installation folder.  If the 
component is written by you but may be used by more than 1 of your apps, it 
should go in a "common" folder. Perhaps System32 or perhaps you create a 
folder under Program Files\Common Files. If the component is any that are 
included with VB it should go in System32 or where MS designates is the 
"proper" place for it. 3rd party components should go where the 
author/publisher designates, which usually will be System32.

The reason for this is that if the file is shared and used by multiple apps 
(which you've not written), it needs to be in a place where other app's 
installations can properly update it if necessary. What leads to DLL Hell is 
people not playing by the rules when installing files.

ActiveX components MUST be registered, and normally, they can only be 
registered in one location. So, just using your sqlite.dll for an example, 
this is a file that is most likely utilized by apps you've not written. If 
you were to install this file into your app's installation folder, then ALL 
apps needing it would use the file as installed by you (IOW, the one in the 
app's folder). Now you might be installing an older version and perhaps 
another app previously installed actually used an earlier version. Not good 
for that other app. On the other hand, if the designated folder where this 
file should be installed is System32, your app's Setup will find it there 
and compare file versions and not overwrite it if what you're distributing 
is older.

Furthermore, if you install a shared file in the app's folder, and then your 
app is uninstalled, that file's going to get uninstalled and now other apps 
won't work because they need that file too but it's not there anymore. This 
is avoided by installing the file where it's supposed to be installed. So, 
how do you know where the file is supposed to be installed?  The 
documentation for the component should tell you that. If it doesn't, it's 
usually safe to assume it should be System32.

Complicating things a bit more is 64 bit versions of Windows because 
System32 is actually for 64 bit files.  32 bit files should go in SysWOW64. 
This usually shouldn't be anything you need to worry about IF you're using a 
decent installer and have created your installation program properly (IOW, 
that it's a 32 bit program being installed). The installation program should 
"ask" Windows (via API functions) what the system folder is and Windows will 
take care of returning the correct folder name. The problems arise from 
idiots that either hard code paths where files are to be installed or just 
totally disregard where a file is supposed to be installed or in some other 
way make up their own rule for installing the file.

That's the way it's supposed to work anyway. Granted, it doesn't always even 
when the rules are followed.

-- 
Mike
 

0
MikeD
2/14/2010 1:09:47 AM
>
> To expand a bit on what Ralph has already said...
>
> Basically, if the DLL or OCX (I'm going to use the term "component" from 
> here on out for both ActiveX DLLs and OCXs) is not specifically for use 
> ONLY by the app, it should NOT go in the app's installation folder.  If 
> the component is written by you but may be used by more than 1 of your 
> apps, it should go in a "common" folder. Perhaps System32 or perhaps you 
> create a folder under Program Files\Common Files. If the component is any 
> that are included with VB it should go in System32 or where MS designates 
> is the "proper" place for it. 3rd party components should go where the 
> author/publisher designates, which usually will be System32.
>
> The reason for this is that if the file is shared and used by multiple 
> apps (which you've not written), it needs to be in a place where other 
> app's installations can properly update it if necessary. What leads to DLL 
> Hell is people not playing by the rules when installing files.
>
> ActiveX components MUST be registered, and normally, they can only be 
> registered in one location. So, just using your sqlite.dll for an example, 
> this is a file that is most likely utilized by apps you've not written. If 
> you were to install this file into your app's installation folder, then 
> ALL apps needing it would use the file as installed by you (IOW, the one 
> in the app's folder). Now you might be installing an older version and 
> perhaps another app previously installed actually used an earlier version. 
> Not good for that other app. On the other hand, if the designated folder 
> where this file should be installed is System32, your app's Setup will 
> find it there and compare file versions and not overwrite it if what 
> you're distributing is older.
>
> Furthermore, if you install a shared file in the app's folder, and then 
> your app is uninstalled, that file's going to get uninstalled and now 
> other apps won't work because they need that file too but it's not there 
> anymore. This is avoided by installing the file where it's supposed to be 
> installed. So, how do you know where the file is supposed to be installed? 
> The documentation for the component should tell you that. If it doesn't, 
> it's usually safe to assume it should be System32.
>
> Complicating things a bit more is 64 bit versions of Windows because 
> System32 is actually for 64 bit files.  32 bit files should go in 
> SysWOW64. This usually shouldn't be anything you need to worry about IF 
> you're using a decent installer and have created your installation program 
> properly (IOW, that it's a 32 bit program being installed). The 
> installation program should "ask" Windows (via API functions) what the 
> system folder is and Windows will take care of returning the correct 
> folder name. The problems arise from idiots that either hard code paths 
> where files are to be installed or just totally disregard where a file is 
> supposed to be installed or in some other way make up their own rule for 
> installing the file.
>
> That's the way it's supposed to work anyway. Granted, it doesn't always 
> even when the rules are followed.
>
> -- 
> Mike
>
>

Thanks Mike,

One other question though, if I install a component that may be shared and 
my app is then uninstalled, should I mark the component to be left and not 
uninstall it? I know this is an option in Inno Setup which is what I use.

Norm 

0
Norm
2/14/2010 3:13:24 AM
"Norm" <NormF4@spoof.com> wrote in message
news:C3EF0402-C540-40C6-AF78-A19B35ACB204@microsoft.com...
>
>
> One other question though, if I install a component that may be shared and
> my app is then uninstalled, should I mark the component to be left and not
> uninstall it? I know this is an option in Inno Setup which is what I use.
>

Normally yes.

With P&D and InstallShield there is a sort of 'reference checking' but it is
essentially unreliable. <g> P&D will 'ask' during an uninstall with a
dialog - something like: "This component may be used by other applications.
Do you still want to remove it." Works well but of course is interactive.
The typical user often has no clue so tends to leave them.

I have always (as MikeD recommended) placed 'shared' items in a common
folder. However, I work mostly in an Enterprise or Corporate environment
with a suite of applications, and often treat these 'common folders' as a
separate versioned install. Also most installs and uninstalls are done by
administrators or privileged users on relatively known boxes.

Targets in wild are a very different scenario. <g>

-ralph


0
Ralph
2/14/2010 5:20:28 AM
"MikeD" <nobody@nowhere.edu> schrieb im Newsbeitrag 
news:O9e%23oJRrKHA.5940@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...
>
> ----<snip>----
>
> Complicating things a bit more is 64 bit versions of Windows because System32 
> is actually for 64 bit files.  32 bit files should go in SysWOW64. This 
> usually shouldn't be anything you need to worry about IF you're using a decent 
> installer and have created your installation program properly (IOW, that it's 
> a 32 bit program being installed). The installation program should "ask" 
> Windows (via API functions) what the system folder is and Windows will take 
> care of returning the correct folder name. The problems arise from idiots that 
> either hard code paths where files are to be installed or just totally 
> disregard where a file is supposed to be installed or in some other way make 
> up their own rule for installing the file.
>

On non-english versions of windows it's even more complicated.
the 'Common files' folder is named 'Gemeinsame Dateien' on a german
Win2000, 'program files' is 'Programme' and so on.
If you "ask" Windows it will tell you the correct name, but even some
Micro$oft apps simply assume the english names.

So on a Win2000 Machine I have two folders, one 'program files' and
one 'Programme'. Same for 'common files' and 'Gemeinsame Dateien'.

On my other machines I moved the subdirectories and files to the correct
folder and seached the registry and changed the entries there.
But on this machine an idiot had hardcoded the path to his common files,
so the app didn't find it's files after I had moved them to the 'right' place.

Helmut. 

0
Helmut
2/14/2010 10:05:40 AM
Norm wrote:
> I seem to remember a discussion here about putting ocx and other
> files in the program folder instead of in the system folder and that
> the vb program would find them there. ...

To add to the pile:

As you research this subject you will find there is NO ONE right way and NO
OSFA ("One Size Fits All"). There are always several strategies you can
employ, and depending on your problem domain some will be a 'better
practice' than others, while some will be a road to *fail*.

After you filter through all the various suggestions and do your research,
the next step is to examine how the big boys do it - take a look at how
major products are installed and configured on your own PC. You'll quickly
notice - they all employ different methods as well.

The key is to select a strategy that fits YOUR product, YOUR target, and
YOUR requirements - then adopt a plan and stick to it, ie, a WhiteBoard is
your best first technology. <g>

-ralph


0
Ralph
2/14/2010 4:00:38 PM

"Ralph" <nt_consulting64@yahoo.com> wrote in message 
news:OSV#C#YrKHA.732@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...
> Norm wrote:
>> I seem to remember a discussion here about putting ocx and other
>> files in the program folder instead of in the system folder and that
>> the vb program would find them there. ...
>
> To add to the pile:
>
> As you research this subject you will find there is NO ONE right way and 
> NO
> OSFA ("One Size Fits All"). There are always several strategies you can
> employ, and depending on your problem domain some will be a 'better
> practice' than others, while some will be a road to *fail*.
>
> After you filter through all the various suggestions and do your research,
> the next step is to examine how the big boys do it - take a look at how
> major products are installed and configured on your own PC. You'll quickly
> notice - they all employ different methods as well.
>
> The key is to select a strategy that fits YOUR product, YOUR target, and
> YOUR requirements - then adopt a plan and stick to it, ie, a WhiteBoard is
> your best first technology. <g>
>
> -ralph
>
>

What I had hoped to do was be able to put all the extra files needed by my 
app on the server with the executable and avoid having to have an IT person 
install files on each computer, but I guess that is about impossible, unless 
I strip a lot out of the app.

Thanks for all the information, as I have said I have learned a lot just 
reading all the good information in this newsgroup.

Norm 

0
Norm
2/14/2010 7:27:50 PM
Reply:

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I would like to set up a file with multipages and use the same template in each page. Is there a way to insert a template after a page break? If a better way to do this, I am open to suggestions. I have to give a record of charity donations to each person for the year. I would like to do print once and have the file print a page for each with their info. I have to set up a header, etc. to identify the org and dates, amounts, etc. To repeat this template after each page break would be very helpful. Thanks Rex Hi Rex! I would recommend that you use Word to print the documents, using data ...

Excel Cell Formatting question
I am using MS Excel 2003 SP1. I would like to have negative numbers display as red and in brackets ) Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks To -- Tom Bradstree ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Tom Bradstreet's Profile: http://www.excelforum.com/member.php?action=getinfo&userid=1578 View this thread: http://www.excelforum.com/showthread.php?threadid=27296 Select the range you want to format and go to the Format menu, selec Cells. Then select the Number tab and select your number of decima places and the format for negative numbers ...

Junk eMail rule- way to use Contacts as Exceptions?
Is there a way to use everyone in Contacts as the Exception list- without having to add them one by one to the Exception list? Clearly- anyone in our Contacts would not be Junk senders- and not having to add people to the exception list would be cool... Thanks in advance! Yes you can. "John Noble" <bizzdevsans@spampacbell.net> wrote in message news:MfXOa.491$4H2.40321174@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com... > Is there a way to use everyone in Contacts as the Exception list- without > having to add them one by one to the Exception list? Clearly- anyone in our > Contact...

Outlook 2003 is not finding recent messages using the find function
One of our client have problems when searching for a message in his inbox. Recent received mails are not found. Only mails who are already a few hours in his inbox are found . The cashing is enabled. On the exchange server the full text indexing is disabled. His inbox contains +/- 20.000 mails In news:OOGMGUZAGHA.3352@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl, Paul <pcauwe@hotmail.com> typed: > One of our client have problems when searching for a message in his > inbox. Recent received mails are not found. Only mails who are > already a few hours in his inbox are found . The cashing is enabled....

attach a file to a subform
Hi, I would like to add a button (outside of the subform) or a double click on text box (inside a subform) to add an attachement (pdf, word, excel). I was told i can use the OLE Object, but I could make it work. thanks in advance -- Message posted via AccessMonster.com http://www.accessmonster.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/access-forms/200705/1 I meant I could not make it work ielmrani wrote: >Hi, >I would like to add a button (outside of the subform) or a double click on >text box (inside a subform) to add an attachement (pdf, word, excel). I was >told i can use the OLE Object, but...

How to See to which file MEM_MAPPED
Hello all, When you use WinDbg for standard PC, you can use !address and then you can see to which file a MEM_MAPPED memory page from VirtualMemory is related QUESTION: Is it also possible for windows ce ? Can I see under Windows CE (5) to which file the MEM_MAPPED Page or region is related? Thank you ...

How to switch between worksheets without using mouse?
How can you switch between worksheets tabs (within the same workbook) without using a mouse? i.e., what keyboard sequences do you need to do this? The only way I've found is opening a second instance of Excel and alt-tab between them, but then one spreadsheet is open in read only format. Can this be done? Please help the carpal tunnel people out there! Thanks, Joe (joemagiera at ameritech dot net) joemagiera@ameritech.net ctrl-pgup and ctrl-pgdn Joe Magiera wrote: > > How can you switch between worksheets tabs (within the same workbook) without > using a mouse? i.e.,...

share file system with Network Appliance
I have an NFS mount on a network appliance server and I wanted to make it visible to my windows server 2003. Any hints. Thanks. Install the Microsoft Services for NFS which is part of the "Other file and network Services" Windows component. Alternately, you could also present the mount as SMB from the filer. Watch out for your standard case sensitivity and file name difference issues. -- David Thomas Hodan "rvaede" wrote: > > I have an NFS mount on a network appliance server and I wanted to > make it visible to my windows se...

overwritten file
I have a client that overwrote an excel sheet. He did not have autorecovery on. Is there any way to recover this document? Sorry, no. -- John johnf202 at hotmail dot com "mark" <mark@mwts.cc> wrote in message news:4c7501c356ae$89ae8500$a001280a@phx.gbl... > I have a client that overwrote an excel sheet. He did not > have autorecovery on. Is there any way to recover this > document? Backup file is pretty much his only option if one exists. Has he perhaps sent the file anywhere else that he can get a copy back from, or if so he could possibly still have a ...

Link update window opens on opening a linked Excel file
I have recently transferred my Office 97 applications to a new computer running under XP. Since the transfer, whenever I open a file which has links to another file, a window opens saying:"The workbook you opened contains automatic links to information in another workbook. Do you want to update this workbook with changes made to the other workbook? To update all linked information, click Yes. To keep the existing information, click No." The Automatic link update radio button accessed via Edit/Links is set (and the Manual radio button is greyed out). I have removed and then ...

Cannot create file error. Cannot open or save tif files...please h
Error I an receiving when trying to open a tif file as follows: Cannot create file:Remittance_advice.tif.right-click the folder you want to create the file in, and then click properties on the shortcut menu to check your permissions for the folder I am using windows vista and office 2007 outlook I cannot open or save a tif file. I can open all other file attachments. I can forward to another pc in my office and they can open. they can rename the tif and resend to me and I can open. original name is remittance_advice.tif and renamed is remittance_advice1.tif. this just start...