Groups Gone Wild

It seems that Microsoft has accidentally created a few groups over the 
years, then removed them from their own servers.  I'm afraid it's a 
hit/miss story, though, as far as them still being available on the 
broader usenet.  Two I'm aware of:

  microsoft.public.access
  microsoft.public.word.programming

On some NNTP servers, not on others.  I don't know by what criteria 
NNTP admins accept rmgroup commands, but my impression was most don't 
these days because they're so easily forged.  Question is, how long the 
old microsoft.public.vb.* hierarchy will survive in the wild?


0
Karl
5/11/2010 5:36:36 PM
vb.general.discussion 1016 articles. 0 followers. Follow

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Hi Karl,

Karl E. Peterson schrieb:

> ...
> On some NNTP servers, not on others.  I don't know by what criteria NNTP 
> admins accept rmgroup commands, but my impression was most don't these 
> days because they're so easily forged.  Question is, how long the old 
> microsoft.public.vb.* hierarchy will survive in the wild?
> 
> 

I just posted to dbp:

 > ....
 >
 >> My money says they'll still be there for a long, long time to come. 
  And it'll piss off TPTB for at least as long. <g>
 >
 > That was my initial thought; if <rmgroups> is indeed fully 
automatically handled by mirrors assuming MS can send an authenticated 
command it would seem as though they could, indeed, "pull the plug" if 
they chose to do so.  That's a level of detail within the admin of 
usenet I don't know enough about to know what the likelihood is of 
coming to pass or not.  I know I'm not spending much time nor effort 
worrying about it one way or t'other... :)
 > ...

I did some research. It seems to be that MS did not disallow mirroring 
their news server into Usenet, but also did not enforce it. An in the 
Usenet community well known and influential guy called Julien �lie seems 
to have taken over some time ago the *inofficial* (in respect to MS) 
task of Usenet administration of the microsoft.public.* groups by 
sending the appropriate control messages into Usenet on its own behalf 
(group creation and revoming control messages).

Following a cite of one of his posts regarding how he will proceed in 
the case of the MS shutdown:

http://groups.google.com/group/news.admin.hierarchies/browse_thread/thread/67439c68236e7e35

 > Following a thread on news.admin.misc:
 >
 >> Microsoft Responds to the Evolution of Communities
 >> http://www.microsoft.com/communities/newsgroups/default.mspx
 >
 >> Beginning in June 2010, Microsoft will begin closing newsgroups and
 >> migrating users to Microsoft forums that include Microsoft Answers,
 >> TechNet and MSDN.  This move will centralize content, make it easier for
 >> contributors to retain their influence, reduce redundancies and make
 >> content easier to find.  Overall, forums offer a better spam management
 >> platform that will improve customer satisfaction by encouraging a
 >> healthy discussion space.
 >
 > I just wanted to let you know that I will issue rmgroup control articles,
 > reflecting the changes that are bound to happen on msnews.microsoft.com,
 > when they occur.
 >
 > Therefore, if you want to go on carrying these Microsoft newsgroups,
 > you should not honour my PGP key:
 >     http://usenet.trigofacile.com/hierarchies/index.py?see=MICROSOFT
 >
 > Note that a lot of microsoft.public.* is already obsolete and unused.
 >
 > If somebody else wants to handle the microsoft.* hierarchy in a different
 > way, he should create a PGP key, communicate it and begin sending
 > newgroup/checkgroups messages to keep the hierarchy alive.
 >
 > --
 > Julien �LIE

So this guy will send rmgroup control articles, and all NNTP servers 
that automatically handle these will remove the m.p.* groups. His 
decision is backed (seen in other threads) by some other influential 
people in Usenet.

So if any NNTP-server admin further wants to host the m.p.* groups (at 
least the exisiting posts), he *now* has to configure his server to 
ignore the rmgroup control messages from this guy (which can be 
identified AFAIK by his public signature).

In theory the microsoft.public.* groups still could stay existing in 
Usenet (allowing reading and posting), wether MS is shutting their 
servers or not. Then everyone interested just had to switch his nntp 
acccount to a server that has those groups.

But what then would MS do? Will they send their attorneys to the front? 
At least, I believe, they would be bothered by using microsoft as root 
of the hierarchy. Perhaps one could circumvent this by switching from 
microsoft.public.* to eg. ms.* :-)

-- 
Ulrich Korndoerfer

VB tips, helpers, solutions -> http://www.proSource.de/Downloads/
0
Ulrich
5/11/2010 5:47:11 PM
Ulrich Korndoerfer wrote:
> I just posted to dbp:
> Following a cite of one of his posts regarding how he will proceed in the 
> case of the MS shutdown:
>
> http://groups.google.com/group/news.admin.hierarchies/browse_thread/thread/67439c68236e7e35

Saw that, yeah.  Depressing.  But it's a good lead to follow-up on!

-- 
..NET: It's About Trust!
http://vfred.mvps.org


0
Karl
5/11/2010 5:53:23 PM
Karl E. Peterson wrote:
> Ulrich Korndoerfer wrote:
>> I just posted to dbp:
>> Following a cite of one of his posts regarding how he will proceed in 
>> the case of the MS shutdown:
>>
>> http://groups.google.com/group/news.admin.hierarchies/browse_thread/thread/67439c68236e7e35 
>>
> 
> Saw that, yeah.  Depressing.  But it's a good lead to follow-up on!

Not terribly unsurprising I suppose.  But note Tim Kirvian's (sp?) 
response of fast-tracking comp.* groups....

If you're not happy w/ the use of existing comp.* groups, that's way I'd 
suggest going.

--


0
dpb
5/11/2010 6:21:29 PM
"Karl E. Peterson" <karl@exmvps.org> wrote in message 
news:hsc4j8$dt4$1@news.eternal-september.org...
> It seems that Microsoft has accidentally created a few groups over the 
> years, then removed them from their own servers.  I'm afraid it's a 
> hit/miss story, though, as far as them still being available on the 
> broader usenet.  Two I'm aware of:
>
>  microsoft.public.access
>  microsoft.public.word.programming
>
> On some NNTP servers, not on others.  I don't know by what criteria NNTP 
> admins accept rmgroup commands, but my impression was most don't these 
> days because they're so easily forged.  Question is, how long the old 
> microsoft.public.vb.* hierarchy will survive in the wild?

The following specific group doesn't show up in msnews server, but my 
ISP(Cox) shows it. I don't know if there is such a thing as a hidden 
newsgroup.

microsoft.public.vb

Google stopped indexing it since 2008 although my ISP shows some posts, one 
from this year, and 9 posts from 2009. Here is the link to Google version:

http://groups.google.com/group/microsoft.public.vb/about?hl=en

Here is a link to msnews for that group.

news://msnews.microsoft.com/microsoft.public.vb

When I click on the link, I get the following error:

411 no such newsgroup

Configuration:
   Account: msnews.microsoft.com
   Server: msnews.microsoft.com
   Protocol: NNTP
   Port: 119
   Secure(SSL): 0
   Error Number: 411
   Code: 800ccca5




0
Nobody
5/11/2010 7:09:04 PM
dpb wrote:
> Karl E. Peterson wrote:
>> Ulrich Korndoerfer wrote:
>>> I just posted to dbp:
>>> Following a cite of one of his posts regarding how he will proceed in the 
>>> case of the MS shutdown:
>>>
>>> http://groups.google.com/group/news.admin.hierarchies/browse_thread/thread/67439c68236e7e35
>>>
>> 
>> Saw that, yeah.  Depressing.  But it's a good lead to follow-up on!
>
> Not terribly unsurprising I suppose.  But note Tim Kirvian's (sp?) response 
> of fast-tracking comp.* groups....
>
> If you're not happy w/ the use of existing comp.* groups, that's way I'd 
> suggest going.

Yeah, Big8 seems aware of this particular Microsoft reamjob, and is 
offering to help out as best they can.

-- 
..NET: It's About Trust!
http://vfred.mvps.org


0
Karl
5/11/2010 8:02:26 PM
Nobody wrote:
> The following specific group doesn't show up in msnews server, but my 
> ISP(Cox) shows it. I don't know if there is such a thing as a hidden 
> newsgroup.
>
> microsoft.public.vb

Yeah, sounds like another one that "got loose" at one point, and only 
the servers that honored the "authoratative" rmgroup requests cleansed 
themselves of it.  (It's not on eternal-september.)

-- 
..NET: It's About Trust!
http://vfred.mvps.org


0
Karl
5/11/2010 8:02:32 PM
"Karl E. Peterson" <karl@exmvps.org> wrote in message =
news:OsUrmTU8KHA.1436@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...
: Yeah, sounds like another one that "got loose" at one point, and only=20
: the servers that honored the "authoratative" rmgroup requests cleansed =

: themselves of it.  (It's not on eternal-september.)

I see a m.p.vb and m.p.vb.general.  No "discussion", just "general".  =
Both contain posts within the last year.
0
C
5/12/2010 12:24:37 AM
C. Kevin Provance wrote:
> "Karl E. Peterson" <karl@exmvps.org> wrote...
>> Yeah, sounds like another one that "got loose" at one point, and only 
>> the servers that honored the "authoratative" rmgroup requests cleansed 
>> themselves of it.  (It's not on eternal-september.)
>
> I see a m.p.vb and m.p.vb.general.  No "discussion", just "general".  Both 
> contain posts within the last year.

Must be an ISP server, right?  So far, those don't seem to be accepting 
the rmgroup requests from that guy.

-- 
..NET: It's About Trust!
http://vfred.mvps.org


0
Karl
5/12/2010 12:49:54 AM
"Karl E. Peterson" <karl@exmvps.org> schrieb im Newsbeitrag 
news:eQICL0W8KHA.3516@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...
> C. Kevin Provance wrote:
>> "Karl E. Peterson" <karl@exmvps.org> wrote...
>>> Yeah, sounds like another one that "got loose" at one point, and only the 
>>> servers that honored the "authoratative" rmgroup requests cleansed 
>>> themselves of it.  (It's not on eternal-september.)
>>
>> I see a m.p.vb and m.p.vb.general.  No "discussion", just "general".  Both 
>> contain posts within the last year.
>
> Must be an ISP server, right?  So far, those don't seem to be accepting the 
> rmgroup requests from that guy.
>
> -- 
> .NET: It's About Trust!
> http://vfred.mvps.org
>
>


Eternal-September will not accept Juli�n �lie's rmgroup requests.

Some other news server admins in Germany will act accordingly.
One stated he will handle this like the alt and free groups, remove
the groups if there is no traffic.
Others said they will wait and see for some months.

Helmut. 

0
Helmut
5/29/2010 8:47:28 AM
Helmut Meukel wrote:
> "Karl E. Peterson" <karl@exmvps.org> schrieb...
>> C. Kevin Provance wrote:
>>> "Karl E. Peterson" <karl@exmvps.org> wrote...
>>>> Yeah, sounds like another one that "got loose" at one point, and only the 
>>>> servers that honored the "authoratative" rmgroup requests cleansed 
>>>> themselves of it.  (It's not on eternal-september.)
>>>
>>> I see a m.p.vb and m.p.vb.general.  No "discussion", just "general".  Both 
>>> contain posts within the last year.
>>
>> Must be an ISP server, right?  So far, those don't seem to be accepting the 
>> rmgroup requests from that guy.
>
> Eternal-September will not accept Juli�n �lie's rmgroup requests.

Oooooh!  That's *very* good news indeed!  Did you get that news 
officially, or...?  I did write to them to alert them to what that 
axxwipe was up to, and telling them that I was referring a *lot* of 
folks their direction and hoped they wouldn't honor his requests.  
Never got a response, though.

> Some other news server admins in Germany will act accordingly.
> One stated he will handle this like the alt and free groups, remove
> the groups if there is no traffic.
> Others said they will wait and see for some months.

Very very good news, indeed...

-- 
..NET: It's About Trust!  http://vfred.mvps.org
Customer Hatred Knows No Bounds at MSFT
ClassicVB Users Regroup! comp.lang.basic.visual.misc
Free usenet access at http://www.eternal-september.org


0
Karl
6/1/2010 7:25:17 PM
"Karl E. Peterson" <karl@exmvps.org> schrieb im Newsbeitrag 
news:ObGftAcALHA.348@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...
>
> Helmut Meukel wrote:
>> "Karl E. Peterson" <karl@exmvps.org> schrieb...
>>> C. Kevin Provance wrote:
>>>> "Karl E. Peterson" <karl@exmvps.org> wrote...
>>>>> Yeah, sounds like another one that "got loose" at one point, and only the 
>>>>> servers that honored the "authoratative" rmgroup requests cleansed 
>>>>> themselves of it.  (It's not on eternal-september.)
>>>>
>>>> I see a m.p.vb and m.p.vb.general.  No "discussion", just "general".  Both 
>>>> contain posts within the last year.
>>>
>>> Must be an ISP server, right?  So far, those don't seem to be accepting the 
>>> rmgroup requests from that guy.
>>
>> Eternal-September will not accept Juli�n �lie's rmgroup requests.
>
> Oooooh!  That's *very* good news indeed!  Did you get that news officially, 
> or...?  I did write to them to alert them to what that axxwipe was up to, and 
> telling them that I was referring a *lot* of folks their direction and hoped 
> they wouldn't honor his requests.  Never got a response, though.
>
>> Some other news server admins in Germany will act accordingly.
>> One stated he will handle this like the alt and free groups, remove
>> the groups if there is no traffic.
>> Others said they will wait and see for some months.
>
> Very very good news, indeed...
>


Karl this is from a post from one other news server admin:

| eternal-september.org ist kein kommerzieller Anbieter. Sein Betreiber
| ist im Usenet als "Ray Banana" bekannt. Die Diskussion in der �ffent-
| lich zug�nglichen Gruppe eternal-september.support lief schon vor ge-
| raumer Zeit.
|
| Message-ID: <857hng8lme.fsf@banana.shacknet.nu>
| # From: Ray Banana <rayban@banana.shacknet.nu>
| # Date: Fri, 07 May 2010 04:57:13 +0200
| # [...]
| # Thus spake grant <sample@example.invalid>
| # [...]
| # > When Juli�n �lie issues rmgroup control articles, will
| # > eternal-september honour them?
| #
| # Given the current settings of E-S's control.ctl, no.
|

I don't think he will answer the same question over and over again.

Helmut.


0
Helmut
6/1/2010 8:47:17 PM
Helmut Meukel wrote:
> "Karl E. Peterson" <karl@exmvps.org> schrieb im Newsbeitrag 
> news:ObGftAcALHA.348@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...
>>
>> Helmut Meukel wrote:
>>> "Karl E. Peterson" <karl@exmvps.org> schrieb...
>>>> C. Kevin Provance wrote:
>>>>> "Karl E. Peterson" <karl@exmvps.org> wrote...
>>>>>> Yeah, sounds like another one that "got loose" at one point, and only 
>>>>>> the servers that honored the "authoratative" rmgroup requests cleansed 
>>>>>> themselves of it.  (It's not on eternal-september.)
>>>>>
>>>>> I see a m.p.vb and m.p.vb.general.  No "discussion", just "general".  
>>>>> Both contain posts within the last year.
>>>>
>>>> Must be an ISP server, right?  So far, those don't seem to be accepting 
>>>> the rmgroup requests from that guy.
>>>
>>> Eternal-September will not accept Juli�n �lie's rmgroup requests.
>>
>> Oooooh!  That's *very* good news indeed!  Did you get that news officially, 
>> or...?  I did write to them to alert them to what that axxwipe was up to, 
>> and telling them that I was referring a *lot* of folks their direction and 
>> hoped they wouldn't honor his requests.  Never got a response, though.
>>
>>> Some other news server admins in Germany will act accordingly.
>>> One stated he will handle this like the alt and free groups, remove
>>> the groups if there is no traffic.
>>> Others said they will wait and see for some months.
>>
>> Very very good news, indeed...
>>
>
>
> Karl this is from a post from one other news server admin:
>
> | eternal-september.org ist kein kommerzieller Anbieter. Sein Betreiber
> | ist im Usenet als "Ray Banana" bekannt. Die Diskussion in der �ffent-
> | lich zug�nglichen Gruppe eternal-september.support lief schon vor ge-
> | raumer Zeit.
> |
> | Message-ID: <857hng8lme.fsf@banana.shacknet.nu>
> | # From: Ray Banana <rayban@banana.shacknet.nu>
> | # Date: Fri, 07 May 2010 04:57:13 +0200
> | # [...]
> | # Thus spake grant <sample@example.invalid>
> | # [...]
> | # > When Juli�n �lie issues rmgroup control articles, will
> | # > eternal-september honour them?
> | #
> | # Given the current settings of E-S's control.ctl, no.
> |
>
> I don't think he will answer the same question over and over again.

I'm okay with that, as long as he sticks to the first answer.  :-)

Thanks...

-- 
..NET: It's About Trust!  http://vfred.mvps.org
Customer Hatred Knows No Bounds at MSFT
ClassicVB Users Regroup! comp.lang.basic.visual.misc
Free usenet access at http://www.eternal-september.org


0
Karl
6/1/2010 9:23:46 PM
Reply:

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Hello Newsgroup, Very quick question. Why is it that I am unable to use my Exchange DL in assigning permissions to a Public Folder? Setup: Exchange 2003 Enterprise SP1 Windows 2003 Standard SP1 Thanks .... because Distribution Groups are not security principals, cannot be assigned permissions. .... use Security Groups. If you mail-enable them they get the same functionality as distribution lists as well. -- Bharat Suneja MCSE, MCT www.zenprise.com blog: www.suneja.com/blog ----------------------------------- "Kirrin Jones" <kirrinjones@gmail.com> wrote in message ne...

Exchange Distribution Group Usable externally.
I've created a distribution list with domain and external user in it. It works fine if a domain user uses the group...the message gets sent to everyone. If an external user send to the distribution group, only the domain users get the message. Is there a way to set up the group so that when an external user sends to the distro group, everyone in the group gets the message? Thanks, Scott ugh...this works, turns out I just have a brain lapse... ...

How to add URLS in emails and send in groups
I send group emails to my customers and have my email list grouped alphabetically. Each email group I send to, I copy and paste from the previous email into the new one, but the URLS never transfer and I have to constantly renew the URLS. Of course, MS doesn't have anything like this in the help section!!! URRGGGH Any help would be appreciated! You can create a category in the Contacts instead of copy from an old email. -- Ron Sommer MS MVP-Mail "mustardseed5" <mustardseed5@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message news:898EB790-5640-487F-8F06-4DD14F...

grouping rows...
say: DEPT1 EMP1 DEPT1 EMP2 DEPT1 EMP3 DEPT2 EMP4 DEPT2 EMP5 DEPT3 EMP6 DEPT3 EMP7 .... .... .... if I want to group the rows by dept, do I have to select dept1 and group them, and select dept2 and group... for every dept? any better ideas? Data | Filter | Autofilter is probably the fastest way to simply look at rows with specific DEPT# entries in them. If you've got some special need to do much more than that with them, then we'd need a more detailed explanation of what you want to do with this information. "kang" wrote: > say: > DEPT1 ...

Security Group / Distirbution groups
Hello, If I need to setup a group in AD as a Distribution Group (Exchange 2k3 DL), but also use it for assigning NTFS permissions, I simply create it as a Distirubtion group and assign NTFS permissions right? Security Group w/email address in AD = a group I can use to assign NTFS permissions, and also use it as a distribution list but it will NOT show up in the Global Address List. Distribution Group = all of the above BUT DOES show up in the GAL. Right? Troy actually, I think you need to set up a security group, then mail-enable it...you can hide it from the GAL if you wish... --...

Group Addresses "Fail" After Upgrading to Office 2004
New G5 iMac running X.3.7 and Office 2004 to which I upgraded from Office v.X I tried to send an email to an Entourage group address that I often used, without any problem, in Office v.X. It would not go citing the error "Missing or malformed local part" with the Explanation: Mail could not be sent. Account "bobgir2004" Error: -177099. Thinking there might be something wrong with one or more of the addresses, I set up individual emails to each address, copying the text of the message into each one and sent them one by one. All went successfully. Why, with exactly th...

Grouping in Pivot Table
Hello I have spend few hours and I ave lost. The problem is as follow: I have pivot table grouped Group I ...items ...items Group II ...items ...items When new item appears: Group I ...items ...items Group II ...items ...items new item The problem is how to add "new item" in to existing Group, becouse when I try to add item to the group the new group is created. regards Peter Instead of grouping the items in the pivot table, you could add a "Group" field to the source data. Then, add that field as the first row field, and the items will appear in the correc...