New House / Old House Equity?

I'm having a hard time working out how to account for the sale of
our house and the purchase of a new house.  I've got equity in the
old house that will be used as a down payment on the new house.
Additionally, I've got a deposit on the new house.

My overriding assumption is that the purchase of the new house should
be neutral on my net worth (at least initially).  The liability
that I incur should be cancelled by the value of the house.

I have the asset account for the old house and I've created an asset
account for the new house.  When I paid the deposit, I did it as a
transfer from my checking account to the new house asset account.
(That might be the wrong way to do it.)  The question is what to do
with the equity in the old house.  Somehow it should be transferred
into the new house.  Let's use some pretend numbers to demonstrate
the problem.

New House sale price:	$100,000
Old House equity:	$ 20,000
New House deposit:	$  5,000
New House loan:		$ 75,000

I could transfer the equity of the old house into the new house.
But when I do that, the new house's asset value is only $25000 when
it should be $100000.  Additionally, I'll have a new house loan
of $75000.  Doing it that way results in my net worth decreasing
by $50000.  Whoops!

I can think of two solutions:

1) Make the new house loan initial balance $0 and then make
   a transfer of $75000 from the loan to the new house asset account.
   This gets me back to neutral impact on my net worth.  But if
   I do it this way I think that Money is going to calculate the
   payments and loan length wrong.  Because it's not a $0 loan,
   it's a $75000 loan.

2) Make the loan initial balance $100000.  Make the new asset value
   $100000.  Again, neutral impact to net worth.  Then make the
   deposit and equity transfers to the loan.  After this, the house
   value is $100000 and the remaining loan value is $75000.  But if
   I do it this way, I think that Money is going to calculate the
   payment and loan length wrong.  Because it's not a $100000 loan
   it's a $75000 loan.

Have any of you accounted for the sale of an old house and purchase
of a new house in Money?  How did you do it?  Suggestions?

Thanks in advance!
0
mark5832 (444)
11/18/2006 2:03:33 PM
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"Mark Horn" <mark@hornclan.com> wrote in message 
news:slrnelu4ll.po4.mark@home.hornclan.com...
> I'm having a hard time working out how to account for the sale of
> our house and the purchase of a new house.  I've got equity in the
> old house that will be used as a down payment on the new house.
> Additionally, I've got a deposit on the new house.
>
> My overriding assumption is that the purchase of the new house should
> be neutral on my net worth (at least initially).  The liability
> that I incur should be cancelled by the value of the house.

Maybe. Your liability will not be 100% of the new house's value, no?

> I have the asset account for the old house and I've created an asset
> account for the new house.  When I paid the deposit, I did it as a
> transfer from my checking account to the new house asset account.
> (That might be the wrong way to do it.)

That's one way. No one right answer.

> The question is what to do
> with the equity in the old house.  Somehow it should be transferred
> into the new house.  Let's use some pretend numbers to demonstrate
> the problem.

The equity in the old house is the Asset value less the loan balance. So, 
assuming the old house is tracked as an Asset, you need to get it down to 
$0. Some of it should transfer to the old mortgage payoff. Remainder can 
transfer to some cash account as part of the sell closing settlement. (Isn't 
that what happened? I'm **assuming** that there were two closings here and 
you had the equity from the old place in your hands, more or less, at some 
point. This would likely have been true even if they were both closed the 
same day at the same title company. Somewhere in there you had LOTS of 
cash.) Me, I'd not worry about transferring money to the Asset accout just 
yet. I'd account for the purchase first. This all should come straight off 
the settlement sheet. In THAT transaction, one entry should be a transfer to 
the new Asset account of the purchase price, assuming you want to set the 
new asset value=purchase price. Follow the money. The settlement sheet(s) 
are the roadmap.

> New House sale price: $100,000
> Old House equity: $ 20,000
> New House deposit: $  5,000
> New House loan: $ 75,000
>
> I could transfer the equity of the old house into the new house.
> But when I do that, the new house's asset value is only $25000 when
> it should be $100000.  Additionally, I'll have a new house loan
> of $75000.  Doing it that way results in my net worth decreasing
> by $50000.  Whoops!
>
> I can think of two solutions:
>
> 1) Make the new house loan initial balance $0 and then make
>   a transfer of $75000 from the loan to the new house asset account.
>   This gets me back to neutral impact on my net worth.  But if
>   I do it this way I think that Money is going to calculate the
>   payments and loan length wrong.  Because it's not a $0 loan,
>   it's a $75000 loan.

See the refinance FAQ for Chris Cowles' way around this and some reasons not 
to do it. You can find this one and some others at 
http://umpmfaq.info/faqdb.php?cat=23.

> 2) Make the loan initial balance $100000.  Make the new asset value
>   $100000.  Again, neutral impact to net worth.  Then make the
>   deposit and equity transfers to the loan.  After this, the house
>   value is $100000 and the remaining loan value is $75000.  But if
>   I do it this way, I think that Money is going to calculate the
>   payment and loan length wrong.  Because it's not a $100000 loan
>   it's a $75000 loan.
>
> Have any of you accounted for the sale of an old house and purchase
> of a new house in Money?  How did you do it?  Suggestions?

I haven't bought/sold house since I've been using Money. But I have done 
several refis/major remodels and bought several cars. (The cars are not 
tracked as assets but the basic principles seem the same with only exception 
that Automobile : Payments expense would be Transfer : [house as asset 
account].) In several of these cases, I've had to go model the whole thing 
in a temporary file, using the settlement sheets, etc., to figure out how to 
get it right.

My most basic suggestion: follow the money. The settlement sheets balance 
everything right out. You should be able to match these in Money.

Second suggestion: don't try to skip steps. I think your plan to try to move 
money from one asset to the other is skipping the step that you settled on 
selling the one first and than carried the bag of equity cash to the next 
closing. I think you will find this easier if you try to track it that way.

Third suggestion: as obvious as it may seem to try to transfer the principal 
from the new loan balance, don't worry it. Too hard. Money just doesn't want 
to do it this way and trying to fight it is just too ugly to justify. Just 
use some category to create the money from whole cloth in the new settlement 
transaction. (I've created Other Income: Loan Proceeds Received just for 
this purpose.) Yes, there will always be this big blip in your future 
reports for this period. But you'll always be able to remember what was 
unusual going on. The biggest issue is that it will screw up scaling the 
graphs. Even that is lessened if you get all the activity in one day.

Those are my thoughts. I hope they help. 


0
11/18/2006 3:00:26 PM
First things first: the primary thing I'm trying to accomplish
is this:

	new loan + old equity + down payment = price of new house
	new house asset account value = price of new house
	new loan account value = new loan amount

The part I can't figure out, is what to do with the old equity and
the down payment to make this work.  I guess the simple way of doing
it is to set the initial account value of the new house asset to be:

	price of new house - (old equity + down payment)

Then I can simply make a two transfers from the old house asset account:

	Xfer 1: Payoff the old loan
	then, adjust the old house asset value to match the equity derived
	then, make a split w/drawal from the old house asset that includes:
		realtor commissions
		closing fees, etc
	Finally, Xfer 2: the remaining balance from old house asset account
		gets transferred to new house asset account
	Second, transfer the remaining equit

I think this is what I'm going to do unless there's something
obvious that I'm missing.


On 2006-11-18, Dick Watson <littlegreengecko@mind-enufalready-spring.com> wrote:
> Maybe. Your liability will not be 100% of the new house's value, no?

No.  But it should still be net worth neutral.  If the house costs
$100,000, I have $20,000 in equity from the old house and a $5000
deposit, I'm transferring $20k in equity from the old house to
the new house - that's a transfer which is net worth neutral.
I'm also transferring $5000 from my checking account to the new
house - again net worth neutral.  Finally the remaining $75k value
of the house is balanced by the $75k loan which is net worth neutral.

> Remainder can 
> transfer to some cash account as part of the sell closing settlement. (Isn't 
> that what happened? I'm **assuming** that there were two closings here and 
> you had the equity from the old place in your hands, more or less, at some 
> point. This would likely have been true even if they were both closed the 
> same day at the same title company. Somewhere in there you had LOTS of 
> cash.) 

No.  What happens is that the attorney for the closing of the old
house wires it to the attorney for the closing of the new house.
It never directly passes into my hands.  The reason for this is that
banks have OCC pressure to be careful about anti-money laundering.
Large deposits have automatic holds put on them.  If you're closing
on your old house on Monday, those funds won't be available for
your closing on Tuesday, much less so if you're closing on the new
the same day as the old house.

The offshoot: the equity from my old house never touched any of
my accounts.

> http://umpmfaq.info/faqdb.php?cat=23.

Thanks.

> Third suggestion: as obvious as it may seem to try to transfer the principal 
> from the new loan balance, don't worry it. Too hard. Money just doesn't want 
> to do it this way and trying to fight it is just too ugly to justify. 

Thanks for the tip.

> Those are my thoughts. I hope they help. 

They do.  Thanks.
0
mark5832 (444)
11/19/2006 2:26:11 AM
"Mark Horn" <mark@hornclan.com> wrote in message 
news:slrnelu4ll.po4.mark@home.hornclan.com...
>
> My overriding assumption is that the purchase of the new house should
> be neutral on my net worth (at least initially).  The liability
> that I incur should be cancelled by the value of the house.

Not necessarily. Loan closing costs may have an immediate net negative 
effect, but should be comparatively small.
-- 
Chris Cowles
Gainesville, FL



0
spam_magnet (1210)
11/19/2006 3:04:59 AM
On 2006-11-18, Chris Cowles <spam_magnet@remove-me-bellsouth.net> wrote:
> Not necessarily. Loan closing costs may have an immediate net negative 
> effect, but should be comparatively small.

True.  Hadn't thought of that.  Thanks.
0
mark5832 (444)
11/19/2006 4:03:13 AM
inline...

"Mark Horn" <mark@hornclan.com> wrote in message 
news:slrnelvg63.23p.mark@home.hornclan.com...
> First things first: the primary thing I'm trying to accomplish
> is this:
>
> new loan + old equity + down payment = price of new house
> new house asset account value = price of new house
> new loan account value = new loan amount

Yes, when all settle out, I agree these identities are probably good 
starting places. The first one isn't quite that simple because of things 
like closing costs. It's these little details (escrow settlement, pro-rated 
utilities and taxes, etc., that will be a huge factor in sorting all of this 
out.

> The part I can't figure out, is what to do with the old equity and
> the down payment to make this work.  I guess the simple way of doing
> it is to set the initial account value of the new house asset to be:
>
> price of new house - (old equity + down payment)
>
> Then I can simply make a two transfers from the old house asset account:

Sounds like a good going in premise.

> Xfer 1: Payoff the old loan
> then, adjust the old house asset value to match the equity derived
> then, make a split w/drawal from the old house asset that includes:
> realtor commissions
> closing fees, etc
> Finally, Xfer 2: the remaining balance from old house asset account
> gets transferred to new house asset account
> Second, transfer the remaining equit
>
> I think this is what I'm going to do unless there's something
> obvious that I'm missing.

If you're like me, you will probably find it takes several tries to get all 
of this right. Things like the sign of amounts in these splits are very 
tedious to sort out. Also, the mechanics of Loan Payment/Principal Transfer 
complicate life. This issue is discussed in the FAQ, but you'll find out 
about it soon enough.

> On 2006-11-18, Dick Watson <littlegreengecko@mind-enufalready-spring.com> 
> wrote:
>> Maybe. Your liability will not be 100% of the new house's value, no?
>
> No.  But it should still be net worth neutral.  If the house costs
> $100,000, I have $20,000 in equity from the old house and a $5000
> deposit, I'm transferring $20k in equity from the old house to
> the new house - that's a transfer which is net worth neutral.
> I'm also transferring $5000 from my checking account to the new
> house - again net worth neutral.  Finally the remaining $75k value
> of the house is balanced by the $75k loan which is net worth neutral.

Agreed. Looking back, I'm not sure what I was thinking in previous post 
here. I had something in mind but am clueless now what it was.

>> Remainder can
>> transfer to some cash account as part of the sell closing settlement. 
>> (Isn't
>> that what happened? I'm **assuming** that there were two closings here 
>> and
>> you had the equity from the old place in your hands, more or less, at 
>> some
>> point. This would likely have been true even if they were both closed the
>> same day at the same title company. Somewhere in there you had LOTS of
>> cash.)
>
> No.  What happens is that the attorney for the closing of the old
> house wires it to the attorney for the closing of the new house.
> It never directly passes into my hands.  The reason for this is that
> banks have OCC pressure to be careful about anti-money laundering.
> Large deposits have automatic holds put on them.  If you're closing
> on your old house on Monday, those funds won't be available for
> your closing on Tuesday, much less so if you're closing on the new
> the same day as the old house.

But I'd still follow the cash. No, it may not be in one of your real-world 
accounts. Yes, between the transactions, it IS **your** cash. (It's sure not 
the lawyer's.) It should be credited in one of your accounts.

> The offshoot: the equity from my old house never touched any of
> my accounts.

So put it in some virtual account like your pocket change account. Or create 
a holding account just for this purpose. At any rate, it won't be there 
long. And I'm guessing it will still be more straightforward doing it this 
way than many of the alternatives. (Precisely because you can line up so 
closely to the settlement sheets.) But you get my message by now. At any 
rate, there is no one right solution.

>> http://umpmfaq.info/faqdb.php?cat=23.
>
> Thanks.
>
>> Third suggestion: as obvious as it may seem to try to transfer the 
>> principal
>> from the new loan balance, don't worry it. Too hard. Money just doesn't 
>> want
>> to do it this way and trying to fight it is just too ugly to justify.
>
> Thanks for the tip.
>
>> Those are my thoughts. I hope they help.
>
> They do.  Thanks.

Good luck. Nothing is harder to model in Money. Let us know how things turn 
out and how you end up setting it all up. Everybody can benefit. 


0
11/19/2006 5:22:40 AM
On 2006-11-19, Dick Watson <littlegreengecko@mind-enufalready-spring.com> wrote:
> So put it in some virtual account like your pocket change account. Or create 
> a holding account just for this purpose. 

Why not credit it directly to the new house asset account?  Did I
miss this detail in the FAQ or in this discussion?  What's the
functional difference between posting a transfer to a holding
account and then posting a transfer from that holding account to
the new house asset account?  Why not just skip the middle account?
Is there some benefit that I'm just not seeing?

> Good luck. Nothing is harder to model in Money. Let us know how things turn 
> out and how you end up setting it all up. Everybody can benefit. 

Thanks, again.
0
mark5832 (444)
11/19/2006 12:46:26 PM
Great question. Sets me to thinking.

I guess my rationale is that the first closing has nothing to do with the 
second so I'd keep the transactions completely separate. The rationale for 
that is that it better reflects what's really going on and makes it possible 
to match the settlement sheets more precisely. Finally, my rationale behind 
that is that these transactions are hard enough to get right even if you 
track the settlement sheets exactly.

You are surely correct that the net result after all is said and done is 
converting the equity from one to part of the asset value of the other. 
Whether that's a benefit is up to you. To me, based on past experience, I 
think it would be. But as noted I've not sold/purchased a house in the Money 
era. Is it a large benefit? no. It's just eliminating a simplification. It's 
like showing all the steps in a math problem rather than just cutting to the 
chase and writing down an answer. That may be a matter of personal style not 
best practices.

"Mark Horn" <mark@hornclan.com> wrote in message 
news:slrnem0kh2.9mr.mark@home.hornclan.com...
> Why not credit it directly to the new house asset account?  Did I
> miss this detail in the FAQ or in this discussion?  What's the
> functional difference between posting a transfer to a holding
> account and then posting a transfer from that holding account to
> the new house asset account?  Why not just skip the middle account?
> Is there some benefit that I'm just not seeing? 


0
11/19/2006 1:54:23 PM
Reply:

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I have a bunch of data in a column and it is "separated" by "&nbsp;". The data was imported from an online database. Is there a way to create columns within the current workbook from where the &nbsp; appears? (much like importing a text file) TIA, Greg Greg Wilker wrote: > I have a bunch of data in a column and it is "separated" by "&nbsp;". > > The data was imported from an online database. > > Is there a way to create columns within the current workbook from where the > &nbsp; appears? (much like importing a te...

create new folder is always greyed out-why?
"Create new folder" is always greyed out-why? ...

No new fonts allowed
I have an excel workbook that contains graphs, downloads and linked data and I consistantly get an error when updating the spreadsheet and graphs - "No more new Fonts may be applied to this workbook". What is this error telling me? What can and can I not do? Has anyone else experienced this? Jon Peltier has some information on this in his Charting FAQ article: http://pubs.logicalexpressions.com/Pub0009/LPMArticle.asp?ID=209#jon025 david wrote: > I have an excel workbook that contains graphs, downloads > and linked data and I consistantly get an error when > updat...

My synchronized emails disappeared after adding a new account
This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_004F_01CB5135.56C7EAD0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, I created first an account and I synchronized everything on my local = machine, meaning all messages not only the headers. After doing this I checked if those messages were in my local computer = and they were all there. I added a new live account and I did not even synchronized it. Just = logged in it. To my surprise when I clicked on the first account which was a Hotmail = one, I...