Hi all,

I'm about to embark on some SBS2003 R2 to SBS2008 upgrades. I
previously purchased Jeff's excellent Swing Migration toolkit, and
used it for both SBS2000 to SBS2003 and SBS2003 to SBS2003 (new tin)
migrations.

I see that there's a Microsoft document on migrating SBS2003 to
SBS2008 (http://tinyurl.com/64lja3). It's migrating to new hardware
(necessary anyway, x86 to x64) and assigning a new server name.

Can anyone give me their war stories on SBS2003 R2 to SBS2008
migrations? Jeff's kit was excellent, but I'm an independent engineer
so have to pay for stuff myself, and it's $200 (and the exchange rate
was better then too!). Without wishing to encroach on Jeff's
intellectual property, can anyone tell me the rough concepts of the
2003 to 2008 swing routine that Jeff uses? Is it via TempDC again? The
Microsoft document is 80-odd pages, my SwingIt kit was hundreds.

Thanks in advance for comments. And if Jeff is able to pitch in as
well, that would be great. I'm happy to re-purchase the kit IF it
makes sense, but $200 is a lot when I only get paid �200 for a
migration. What are the real selling points of doing it Jeff's way?



Jim

There are lots of others here who can speak to the swing migration 
questions.

I've done a single very-well-used SBS 2003 (not R2) to 2008 server upgrade 
via the Microsoft document, and I can say that it can be done, without too 
much lost sleep or hair, by a not overly experienced admin who reads the 
docs and follows all the suggestions in them and in some forum posts 
carefully--with a clean result in terms of BPA runs after.

So--it definitely isn't for the faint-hearted, but it can be done, and, in 
my case at least, the users professed to noticing very little if any 
disruption over the course of the migration.  (30 users - migration really 
did take me the whole 21 days, but I was slow on some legacy stuff that was 
left on the old server.)

"Jim" <jim@nospam.com> wrote in message 
news:k333h5lq3tnef36q424q339kh2cp9sm373@4ax.com...
> Hi all,
>
> I'm about to embark on some SBS2003 R2 to SBS2008 upgrades. I
> previously purchased Jeff's excellent Swing Migration toolkit, and
> used it for both SBS2000 to SBS2003 and SBS2003 to SBS2003 (new tin)
> migrations.
>
> I see that there's a Microsoft document on migrating SBS2003 to
> SBS2008 (http://tinyurl.com/64lja3). It's migrating to new hardware
> (necessary anyway, x86 to x64) and assigning a new server name.
>
> Can anyone give me their war stories on SBS2003 R2 to SBS2008
> migrations? Jeff's kit was excellent, but I'm an independent engineer
> so have to pay for stuff myself, and it's $200 (and the exchange rate
> was better then too!). Without wishing to encroach on Jeff's
> intellectual property, can anyone tell me the rough concepts of the
> 2003 to 2008 swing routine that Jeff uses? Is it via TempDC again? The
> Microsoft document is 80-odd pages, my SwingIt kit was hundreds.
>
> Thanks in advance for comments. And if Jeff is able to pitch in as
> well, that would be great. I'm happy to re-purchase the kit IF it
> makes sense, but $200 is a lot when I only get paid �200 for a
> migration. What are the real selling points of doing it Jeff's way?
>
>
>
> Jim 

Jim wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> I'm about to embark on some SBS2003 R2 to SBS2008 upgrades. I
> previously purchased Jeff's excellent Swing Migration toolkit, and
> used it for both SBS2000 to SBS2003 and SBS2003 to SBS2003 (new tin)
> migrations.
> 
> I see that there's a Microsoft document on migrating SBS2003 to
> SBS2008 (http://tinyurl.com/64lja3). It's migrating to new hardware
> (necessary anyway, x86 to x64) and assigning a new server name.
> 
> Can anyone give me their war stories on SBS2003 R2 to SBS2008
> migrations? Jeff's kit was excellent, but I'm an independent engineer
> so have to pay for stuff myself, and it's $200 (and the exchange rate
> was better then too!). Without wishing to encroach on Jeff's
> intellectual property, can anyone tell me the rough concepts of the
> 2003 to 2008 swing routine that Jeff uses? Is it via TempDC again? The
> Microsoft document is 80-odd pages, my SwingIt kit was hundreds.
> 
> Thanks in advance for comments. And if Jeff is able to pitch in as
> well, that would be great. I'm happy to re-purchase the kit IF it
> makes sense, but $200 is a lot when I only get paid �200 for a
> migration. What are the real selling points of doing it Jeff's way?
> 
> 
> 
> Jim
If you are only getting paid 200 pounds for a migration, dude, you are 
vastly under billing.  Most migrations JeffM or otherwise are 20 hours 
or more depending on the timing of the exchange data move.

yes there's a temp DC again.


Both work, the MS way you need to ensure that the AD is clean going in.

Jeff's way leave the SBS 2003 box intact so that you have a straight 
roll back plan.  But both ways are going to be more than 200 pounds of 
time to do a migration.

I did the MS way and I kept myself with a back door because I used the 
Sysinternals DisktoVHD tool to make an exact copy of my SBS 2003 should 
something go wrong.

MS way you have to get the AD to clean.

JeffM way you build a server that gets to that clean AD state.

IMHO it more depends on how confident you are in the state of that AD.

On Sat, 28 Nov 2009 17:30:20 -0800, Susan Bradley
<sbradcpa@pacbell.net> wrote:

>Jim wrote:
>> Hi all,
>> 
>> I'm about to embark on some SBS2003 R2 to SBS2008 upgrades. I
>> previously purchased Jeff's excellent Swing Migration toolkit, and
>> used it for both SBS2000 to SBS2003 and SBS2003 to SBS2003 (new tin)
>> migrations.
>> 
>> I see that there's a Microsoft document on migrating SBS2003 to
>> SBS2008 (http://tinyurl.com/64lja3). It's migrating to new hardware
>> (necessary anyway, x86 to x64) and assigning a new server name.
>> 
>> Can anyone give me their war stories on SBS2003 R2 to SBS2008
>> migrations? Jeff's kit was excellent, but I'm an independent engineer
>> so have to pay for stuff myself, and it's $200 (and the exchange rate
>> was better then too!). Without wishing to encroach on Jeff's
>> intellectual property, can anyone tell me the rough concepts of the
>> 2003 to 2008 swing routine that Jeff uses? Is it via TempDC again? The
>> Microsoft document is 80-odd pages, my SwingIt kit was hundreds.
>> 
>> Thanks in advance for comments. And if Jeff is able to pitch in as
>> well, that would be great. I'm happy to re-purchase the kit IF it
>> makes sense, but $200 is a lot when I only get paid �200 for a
>> migration. What are the real selling points of doing it Jeff's way?
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Jim
>If you are only getting paid 200 pounds for a migration, dude, you are 
>vastly under billing.  Most migrations JeffM or otherwise are 20 hours 
>or more depending on the timing of the exchange data move.
>
>yes there's a temp DC again.
>
>
>Both work, the MS way you need to ensure that the AD is clean going in.
>
>Jeff's way leave the SBS 2003 box intact so that you have a straight 
>roll back plan.  But both ways are going to be more than 200 pounds of 
>time to do a migration.
>
>I did the MS way and I kept myself with a back door because I used the 
>Sysinternals DisktoVHD tool to make an exact copy of my SBS 2003 should 
>something go wrong.
>
>MS way you have to get the AD to clean.
>
>JeffM way you build a server that gets to that clean AD state.
>
>IMHO it more depends on how confident you are in the state of that AD.

Thanks Susan and Bill.

I'm pretty sure the AD is clean. One server is an original SBS2003 R2
install, the other is an SBS 2003 R2 install that was created via
Swing from an existing SBS 2003 R2 install (we'd outgrown the
hardware).

Jeff's original kit that I purchased was excellent, and I've no qualms
about re-purchasing it for 2003>2008 IF it's worthwhile. Back then
there was no Microsoft way of doing it, no answer file, etc. But now
there is, hence my concerns about buying something that isn't a
necessity.

As for the ���� it's a family friend who owns lots of local
businesses, hence the low ���. 

Hmm.......





Jim

Jim wrote:
> On Sat, 28 Nov 2009 17:30:20 -0800, Susan Bradley
> <sbradcpa@pacbell.net> wrote:
> 
>> Jim wrote:
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> I'm about to embark on some SBS2003 R2 to SBS2008 upgrades. I
>>> previously purchased Jeff's excellent Swing Migration toolkit, and
>>> used it for both SBS2000 to SBS2003 and SBS2003 to SBS2003 (new tin)
>>> migrations.
>>>
>>> I see that there's a Microsoft document on migrating SBS2003 to
>>> SBS2008 (http://tinyurl.com/64lja3). It's migrating to new hardware
>>> (necessary anyway, x86 to x64) and assigning a new server name.
>>>
>>> Can anyone give me their war stories on SBS2003 R2 to SBS2008
>>> migrations? Jeff's kit was excellent, but I'm an independent engineer
>>> so have to pay for stuff myself, and it's $200 (and the exchange rate
>>> was better then too!). Without wishing to encroach on Jeff's
>>> intellectual property, can anyone tell me the rough concepts of the
>>> 2003 to 2008 swing routine that Jeff uses? Is it via TempDC again? The
>>> Microsoft document is 80-odd pages, my SwingIt kit was hundreds.
>>>
>>> Thanks in advance for comments. And if Jeff is able to pitch in as
>>> well, that would be great. I'm happy to re-purchase the kit IF it
>>> makes sense, but $200 is a lot when I only get paid �200 for a
>>> migration. What are the real selling points of doing it Jeff's way?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Jim
>> If you are only getting paid 200 pounds for a migration, dude, you are 
>> vastly under billing.  Most migrations JeffM or otherwise are 20 hours 
>> or more depending on the timing of the exchange data move.
>>
>> yes there's a temp DC again.
>>
>>
>> Both work, the MS way you need to ensure that the AD is clean going in.
>>
>> Jeff's way leave the SBS 2003 box intact so that you have a straight 
>> roll back plan.  But both ways are going to be more than 200 pounds of 
>> time to do a migration.
>>
>> I did the MS way and I kept myself with a back door because I used the 
>> Sysinternals DisktoVHD tool to make an exact copy of my SBS 2003 should 
>> something go wrong.
>>
>> MS way you have to get the AD to clean.
>>
>> JeffM way you build a server that gets to that clean AD state.
>>
>> IMHO it more depends on how confident you are in the state of that AD.
> 
> Thanks Susan and Bill.
> 
> I'm pretty sure the AD is clean. One server is an original SBS2003 R2
> install, the other is an SBS 2003 R2 install that was created via
> Swing from an existing SBS 2003 R2 install (we'd outgrown the
> hardware).
> 
> Jeff's original kit that I purchased was excellent, and I've no qualms
> about re-purchasing it for 2003>2008 IF it's worthwhile. Back then
> there was no Microsoft way of doing it, no answer file, etc. But now
> there is, hence my concerns about buying something that isn't a
> necessity.
> 
> As for the ���� it's a family friend who owns lots of local
> businesses, hence the low ���. 
> 
> Hmm.......
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jim

And is he doing well in his business?

Have him buy JeffM's kit.

Seriously I did an entire dry run of the SBS 2003 to SBS 2008 migration 
(see the categories of migration and migration extras at 
www.msmvps.com/blogs/bradley ) and it certainly was worth more than 200 
pounds of my time.

Jim, here's my take:

The MS documentation is a perfectly serviceable migration path, but it does 
have drawbacks.  These aren't secrets, and I think the swing website speaks 
for itself, but here is the quick summary.

The MS path has no support.  You use the documentation and you push through. 
Acceptable for an experienced migrator, but support is worth money.  The 
swing kit comes with support.

The swing kit is a drop and replace model, the MS is an upgrade-style model. 
Which you use may very well be dictated by resources available to you.

The MS path is free.  The Swing version is not.  Obviously.

Now, on to a few finer points that aren't really pros or cons, but are 
things you may not have considered.

A swing kit may cost as much as you are getting paid, but the knowledge you 
gain can be reused and reapplied to other scenarios. That may be worth it.

$200, as Susan pointed out, is ridiculously low for a migration, even for a 
friend.

Your friend owns "many" local businesses?  One can assume that to own more 
than one means that he is somewhat successful.  HE should be willing to 
invest in his business, and you should be able to charge a reasonable rate. 
There is a friend discount, and then there is letting yourself be taken 
advantage of.

Many of my clients are my clients because they were friends first.  When it 
came time for them to decide who to use, they chose me.  And they pay me for 
my services.  The gentleman that owns the bar that I installed the 
point-of-sales system?  He doesn't give me free booze, so why should I give 
him free service?  My friend that owns the hardware store doesn't give me a 
$500 band saw for $200.  He may give it to me at cost ($450?) but that's the 
best I'd get, so I charge him similarly.  A good friend discount, but not 
selling the farm for it.

In short you'd be a patron of a friends' business because you respect the 
friend and he does good business.  He should be willing to return the favor 
and patron your business because you are good at it, not because you beat 
everybody else's prices by thousands.

But I digress.  I suppose you don't need someone preaching to you about how 
to run your business.  So take the above as just some advice from a 
long-time small business advocate, nothing more.  I'll get down from my soap 
box now.  :)

-Cliff



"Jim" <jim@nospam.com> wrote in message 
news:k333h5lq3tnef36q424q339kh2cp9sm373@4ax.com...
> Hi all,
>
> I'm about to embark on some SBS2003 R2 to SBS2008 upgrades. I
> previously purchased Jeff's excellent Swing Migration toolkit, and
> used it for both SBS2000 to SBS2003 and SBS2003 to SBS2003 (new tin)
> migrations.
>
> I see that there's a Microsoft document on migrating SBS2003 to
> SBS2008 (http://tinyurl.com/64lja3). It's migrating to new hardware
> (necessary anyway, x86 to x64) and assigning a new server name.
>
> Can anyone give me their war stories on SBS2003 R2 to SBS2008
> migrations? Jeff's kit was excellent, but I'm an independent engineer
> so have to pay for stuff myself, and it's $200 (and the exchange rate
> was better then too!). Without wishing to encroach on Jeff's
> intellectual property, can anyone tell me the rough concepts of the
> 2003 to 2008 swing routine that Jeff uses? Is it via TempDC again? The
> Microsoft document is 80-odd pages, my SwingIt kit was hundreds.
>
> Thanks in advance for comments. And if Jeff is able to pitch in as
> well, that would be great. I'm happy to re-purchase the kit IF it
> makes sense, but $200 is a lot when I only get paid �200 for a
> migration. What are the real selling points of doing it Jeff's way?
>
>
>
> Jim 

Hi Cliff,

Some very valid points, thank you.

When i bought the 2000 to 2003 Swing kit I paid for it myself, and
didn't really ned any support - one email to Jeff, at which point he
sent me a much later (and much more accurate) PDF than I'd been able
to download at time of purchase. But I've then used it for half a
dozen migrations since then.

I don't anticipate needing support. Google is a great resource, and
timezones aren't a problem either. BUT I did find Jeff's kit to be
superb, and I have no reason to think that the 2003 to 2008 kit will
be any different.  Besides, I suspect there will more migrations on
the way......


Thanks all. Looks like I'll be buying the kit again.



Jim


On Sun, 29 Nov 2009 04:02:53 -0700, "Cliff Galiher"
<cgaliher@gmail.com> wrote:

>Jim, here's my take:
>
>The MS documentation is a perfectly serviceable migration path, but it does 
>have drawbacks.  These aren't secrets, and I think the swing website speaks 
>for itself, but here is the quick summary.
>
>The MS path has no support.  You use the documentation and you push through. 
>Acceptable for an experienced migrator, but support is worth money.  The 
>swing kit comes with support.
>
>The swing kit is a drop and replace model, the MS is an upgrade-style model. 
>Which you use may very well be dictated by resources available to you.
>
>The MS path is free.  The Swing version is not.  Obviously.
>
>Now, on to a few finer points that aren't really pros or cons, but are 
>things you may not have considered.
>
>A swing kit may cost as much as you are getting paid, but the knowledge you 
>gain can be reused and reapplied to other scenarios. That may be worth it.
>
>$200, as Susan pointed out, is ridiculously low for a migration, even for a 
>friend.
>
>Your friend owns "many" local businesses?  One can assume that to own more 
>than one means that he is somewhat successful.  HE should be willing to 
>invest in his business, and you should be able to charge a reasonable rate. 
>There is a friend discount, and then there is letting yourself be taken 
>advantage of.
>
>Many of my clients are my clients because they were friends first.  When it 
>came time for them to decide who to use, they chose me.  And they pay me for 
>my services.  The gentleman that owns the bar that I installed the 
>point-of-sales system?  He doesn't give me free booze, so why should I give 
>him free service?  My friend that owns the hardware store doesn't give me a 
>$500 band saw for $200.  He may give it to me at cost ($450?) but that's the 
>best I'd get, so I charge him similarly.  A good friend discount, but not 
>selling the farm for it.
>
>In short you'd be a patron of a friends' business because you respect the 
>friend and he does good business.  He should be willing to return the favor 
>and patron your business because you are good at it, not because you beat 
>everybody else's prices by thousands.
>
>But I digress.  I suppose you don't need someone preaching to you about how 
>to run your business.  So take the above as just some advice from a 
>long-time small business advocate, nothing more.  I'll get down from my soap 
>box now.  :)
>
>-Cliff
>
>
>
>"Jim" <jim@nospam.com> wrote in message 
>news:k333h5lq3tnef36q424q339kh2cp9sm373@4ax.com...
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I'm about to embark on some SBS2003 R2 to SBS2008 upgrades. I
>> previously purchased Jeff's excellent Swing Migration toolkit, and
>> used it for both SBS2000 to SBS2003 and SBS2003 to SBS2003 (new tin)
>> migrations.
>>
>> I see that there's a Microsoft document on migrating SBS2003 to
>> SBS2008 (http://tinyurl.com/64lja3). It's migrating to new hardware
>> (necessary anyway, x86 to x64) and assigning a new server name.
>>
>> Can anyone give me their war stories on SBS2003 R2 to SBS2008
>> migrations? Jeff's kit was excellent, but I'm an independent engineer
>> so have to pay for stuff myself, and it's $200 (and the exchange rate
>> was better then too!). Without wishing to encroach on Jeff's
>> intellectual property, can anyone tell me the rough concepts of the
>> 2003 to 2008 swing routine that Jeff uses? Is it via TempDC again? The
>> Microsoft document is 80-odd pages, my SwingIt kit was hundreds.
>>
>> Thanks in advance for comments. And if Jeff is able to pitch in as
>> well, that would be great. I'm happy to re-purchase the kit IF it
>> makes sense, but $200 is a lot when I only get paid �200 for a
>> migration. What are the real selling points of doing it Jeff's way?
>>
>>
>>
>> Jim 

In article <uluhCOOcKHA.1648@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl>, cgaliher@gmail.com 
says...
> $200, as Susan pointed out, is ridiculously low for a migration, even for a 
> friend.
> 

That's almost funny, $200 for a migration. We charge between $2,000 and 
$3,000 for migrations from 03 to 08 and most consider that cheap.

-- 
You can't trust your best friends, your five senses, only the little 
voice inside you that most civilians don't even hear -- Listen to that.  
Trust yourself.
spam999free@rrohio.com (remove 999 for proper email address)

On 2009-11-29 15:14:01 +0000, Leythos <spam999free@rrohio.com> said:

> In article <uluhCOOcKHA.1648@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl>, cgaliher@gmail.com
> says...
>> $200, as Susan pointed out, is ridiculously low for a migration, even for a
>> friend.
>> 
> 
> That's almost funny, $200 for a migration. We charge between $2,000 and
> $3,000 for migrations from 03 to 08 and most consider that cheap.

*ding*

We rolled over a 30 user site with new hardware, and charged it out at 
£80 per hour, per engineer.

They were happy with that. Although we also provided 4 virtual servers, 
a new TS, a new mail archiver and a Blackberry Server.

-- 
Gavin. MCSE, MCITP, MSTS  ACSP 10.5
http://www.stoof.co.uk
http://www.twitter.com/gavin_wilby

On Sun, 29 Nov 2009 10:14:01 -0500, Leythos <spam999free@rrohio.com>
wrote:

>In article <uluhCOOcKHA.1648@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl>, cgaliher@gmail.com 
>says...
>> $200, as Susan pointed out, is ridiculously low for a migration, even for a 
>> friend.
>> 
>
>That's almost funny, $200 for a migration. We charge between $2,000 and 
>$3,000 for migrations from 03 to 08 and most consider that cheap.


Guys, don't all get hung up on the price. This is a family friend and
it's a small family business employing 9 people. Small fry, nothing
major. There's just me, doing this at weekends for him.

I didn't want to start a discussion on who can extort the most ���
from a customer, I really just wanted to find out of the Swing
approach was best for 03 to 08.



Jim

In article <sp55h5hmgu9freo80vs8jjr3flfca4tlio@4ax.com>, jim@nospam.com=20
says...
>=20
> On Sun, 29 Nov 2009 10:14:01 -0500, Leythos <spam999free@rrohio.com>
> wrote:
>=20
> >In article <uluhCOOcKHA.1648@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl>, cgaliher@gmail.com=
=20
> >says...
> >> $200, as Susan pointed out, is ridiculously low for a migration, even =
for a=20
> >> friend.
> >>=20
> >
> >That's almost funny, $200 for a migration. We charge between $2,000 and=
=20
> >$3,000 for migrations from 03 to 08 and most consider that cheap.
>=20
>=20
> Guys, don't all get hung up on the price. This is a family friend and
> it's a small family business employing 9 people. Small fry, nothing
> major. There's just me, doing this at weekends for him.
>=20
> I didn't want to start a discussion on who can extort the most =A3=A3=A3
> from a customer, I really just wanted to find out of the Swing
> approach was best for 03 to 08.

From reading your post, it appears that money is an issue, and any=20
business that is actually running can afford the cost of the Swing kit=20
based on the amount of time it will save them and the person doing the=20
migration - which is the point of the replies you've been provided.

If you're not getting compensation from the "Family/Friend" then you=20
should be charging more for your work - they will continue to use your=20
almost free service as long as you undercut your value.



--=20
You can't trust your best friends, your five senses, only the little=20
voice inside you that most civilians don't even hear -- Listen to that. =20
Trust yourself.
spam999free@rrohio.com (remove 999 for proper email address)

Jim wrote:
> On Sun, 29 Nov 2009 10:14:01 -0500, Leythos <spam999free@rrohio.com>
> wrote:
> 
>> In article <uluhCOOcKHA.1648@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl>, cgaliher@gmail.com 
>> says...
>>> $200, as Susan pointed out, is ridiculously low for a migration, even for a 
>>> friend.
>>>
>> That's almost funny, $200 for a migration. We charge between $2,000 and 
>> $3,000 for migrations from 03 to 08 and most consider that cheap.
> 
> 
> Guys, don't all get hung up on the price. This is a family friend and
> it's a small family business employing 9 people. Small fry, nothing
> major. There's just me, doing this at weekends for him.
> 
> I didn't want to start a discussion on who can extort the most ���
> from a customer, I really just wanted to find out of the Swing
> approach was best for 03 to 08.
> 
> 
> 
> Jim
This isn't extortion.  This is realizing that this isn't a $200 project.


I would disagree that there's no support for the MS method, but it is 
newsgroup=free or phone call=pay.

I made the decision to use the MS way because I'd done it more often, I 
ran though the entire thing in a virtual test first and knew what I'd be 
facing.

If you do your homework and clean up your AD ahead of time, it works 
quite nicely.

If you don't know how clean that AD is you may be better served with 
swing.

You chastise us for getting stuck on a $200 project, but you got stuck 
on paying $200 for the migration kit.

We're saying that the migration true costs are so much larger than $200 
that neither should be a factor.

Just done a 60 user SBS2003 to SBS2008 Swing Migration and I can safely say 
that Jeff methods and his help and support are second to none.

Worth every penny.

If this is your first time at this I'd definitely do a swing, and unless 
they were smaller installations without too many complications then I'd say 
you'd always be best to do a swing.

Check out the Microsoft Press Small Business Server 2008 Administrators 
Companion...even they give Jeff an enthusiastic endorsement.

But �200 ?????

Jim. ( Another Jim )




"Susan Bradley" <sbradcpa@pacbell.net> wrote in message 
news:urna#kRcKHA.6096@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...
> Jim wrote:
>> On Sun, 29 Nov 2009 10:14:01 -0500, Leythos <spam999free@rrohio.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> In article <uluhCOOcKHA.1648@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl>, cgaliher@gmail.com 
>>> says...
>>>> $200, as Susan pointed out, is ridiculously low for a migration, even 
>>>> for a friend.
>>>>
>>> That's almost funny, $200 for a migration. We charge between $2,000 and 
>>> $3,000 for migrations from 03 to 08 and most consider that cheap.
>>
>>
>> Guys, don't all get hung up on the price. This is a family friend and
>> it's a small family business employing 9 people. Small fry, nothing
>> major. There's just me, doing this at weekends for him.
>>
>> I didn't want to start a discussion on who can extort the most ���
>> from a customer, I really just wanted to find out of the Swing
>> approach was best for 03 to 08.
>>
>>
>>
>> Jim
> This isn't extortion.  This is realizing that this isn't a $200 project.
>
>
> I would disagree that there's no support for the MS method, but it is 
> newsgroup=free or phone call=pay.
>
> I made the decision to use the MS way because I'd done it more often, I 
> ran though the entire thing in a virtual test first and knew what I'd be 
> facing.
>
> If you do your homework and clean up your AD ahead of time, it works quite 
> nicely.
>
> If you don't know how clean that AD is you may be better served with 
> swing.
>
> You chastise us for getting stuck on a $200 project, but you got stuck on 
> paying $200 for the migration kit.
>
> We're saying that the migration true costs are so much larger than $200 
> that neither should be a factor. 

Jim,

First of all I want to thank you for sharing your endorsement of your past 
experience in using my Swing It!! Kit for a 2003 series migration. I'm glad 
that you found it was a good investment for you then. I also want to thank 
everyone else who posted additional feedback and encouragements here on what 
I'm providing now through SBSmigration.com. I generally prefer to stay out 
of public discussions where comparisons are being debated, I think those who 
have experiences to share should share them without me butting in. But in 
this case, Jim asked me to comment and he's already familar with using Swing 
It!! Kit approach. So I'm going to post 2 replies, this being the first as a 
general thought on what I'm doing in the way of support and development. I 
decided to let the discussion run first just to be fair for anyone with a 
comment to make. The second post I'll make is more of a head to head 
comparison on features or process with the MS whitepaper method. Most all of 
this is on my website, but sometimes it helps to rephrase things.

Jim, I'll go as far as saying that nobody should offer to do this migration 
on the assumption that it's a weekend job. It isn't. I'll also say that (in 
my opinion) any IT consultant needs to keep in mind that project like a 
server replacement or domain migration put the consultant exposed to "what 
if things go really wrong" and now you are in much deeper than planned. For 
that reason, I would always suggest that even among friends, you should 
establish a working agreement that defines "what I will do for you as 
normal" and what would mean "we aren't in a normal situation anymore". By 
that I mean, if you are willing to write off 2 days work (or whatever you 
are comfortable with), then you need to communicate that appropriately. 
"I'll replace your server and migrate it to completion as long as that 
requires 20 hrs or less work hours on-site and no issues with your 
workstations, applications or user configurations are outside of what the 
reference I will use says are normal. For any additional issues I will 
charge my normal rate of $--.--." If this is to be a Swing Migration, I 
would recommend you cite the Kit documentation as your reference, and the 
"if all else fails" option is you put the original server back online 
without any change. This limits your liability (mostly) to "Jim loses a 
weekend for nothing gained" if you find you are over your head. Your 
customer/friend isn't migrated, but he's no worse off. This is an essential 
option of Swing Migration, you can back away even if it's more likely that 
you will in fact succeed with follow-up work no matter what.

This is a far more complex project than most people realize until they have 
not only down a lab test run-through, but also actually put a production 
domain through to completion at which point you actually comprehend how much 
is going on.

Jim, I also want to make an initial response on a comment you made earlier.

- You said "you didn't really need my help" to do the Swing Migration 
because the documentation you had gave you what you needed to understand 
what to do. EXACTLY. That remains the point today. I'm trying to give people 
complete instructions (far more robust than what MS provides) that explain 
everything you need to do to perform a safe and predictable Swing Migration.
- You also said I followed-up with you with updated documentation. EXACTLY. 
I follow-up and work with my customers. I do support from end to end on the 
project with them, it's included in the purchase of the Kit.
- I also do work on updating information and in some cases I will provide 
that via the SBSmigration.com website, sometimes with updated tools, 
sometimes by virtue of the support forums I operate that are specific to 
Swing Migration projects...and in some cases I do full rewrites of the 
documentation as I see fits the need of a different audience. That's the 
main change over the last 5 years...the people who want to do a Swing 
Migration are a somewhat different demographic. Frankly, a lot of them need 
and prefer much more tutorial type information. Therefore the current Kit 
references are more tutorial and checklist based, step by step with lots of 
detail. Experiences IT people will likely work mostly from skimming and the 
checklists on each section of the project path.
- The style and detail of documentation I wrote in 2004 was intended for 
very skilled IT consultants, and over time I have been fleshing out the 
documentation to fit the needs of entry level technicians while explaining a 
process that mostly only experienced technicians would otherwise be 
comfortable with. I'm aware that most people need much more detail on how to 
do this project than they will get from the MS whitepaper or the style 
original Swing It Kit!! documentation I wrote 5 years. The Swing It!! Kit 
for the 2003 to 2008 scenario is extensively detailed, and the tools 
included with it are much more sophisticated.

There is no way to avoid the complexity of a migration from 2003 to SBS 
2008, the project is going to be complex. What Swing It Kitt does is 
provides you a migration path of construction that essentially eliminates 
the risk to your production domain, eliminates modification to your 
production server, and provides you step by step tasks in far greater detail 
than the MS whitepaper. I've also provided you a path that is a cleaner 
result and doesn't require you to reconfigure your workstations, your user 
environments or even your Outlook settings.

To a great degree, to appreciate the full value of doing a Swing Migration 
it becomes necessary to get your head around what the Microsoft whitepaper 
migration really encompasses. I generally tell people who want a comparison 
that they should first go print the MS Whitepaper, then follow all the links 
in it to print those references as well. Print the Release Notes, and then 
go find all the updated details from the SBSblog. Still not done, go run the 
SBS BPA and start looking at everything it says to do, and then don't forget 
to ask around a bit more. The Swing It!! Kit is intended to replace that 
experience with one that is compiled, organized and optimized for the first 
time SBS migration project or the consultant doing it repeatedly.

There's this problem of you don't understand how complicated this project is 
until you understand the entire project, and that you mostly don't 
understand until you have completed the entire project once.

I want to close by stating two basic points: If you have never done this 
project, you will not yet realize the number of details you have to master, 
so having an organized solution path is important and the MS whitepaper is 
not complete. (really, ask around....it's not complete)  Secondly, even an 
IT consultant does need to have a reference to work from because....there's 
a lot of details involved. I'm providing a resource that optimizes your 
ability to obtain all the details you need in a format you can use one or 
repeatedly, and then I'm providing you with specific support of that 
project. If I thought everyone could finish this project from a dead start 
within a 2 day weekend, I wouldn't be providing 90 days of support. I'm 
providing an outline that lets you choose the pace, and support that you can 
adapt to your pace. The Technician Kit costs less than 1 MS Support call for 
a single issue question, yet the Support I'm providing is end to end on the 
entire project. You can get another project supported for $120/project with 
the same 90 days unlimited support from end-to-end if you maintain a 
subscription. The purpose of the subscription is to keep you up to date and 
with access to the support and resources you need for $10/month. If anyone 
thinks I'm pricing myself out of the value curve with that offer, I can only 
tell you that I'm not trying to make support an income stream, I'm trying to 
make word of mouth understanding that this is a project with a predictable 
solution path available. It's my hope that everyone who uses my Kit will 
need no support because at that point, I'm probably doing an outstanding 
job....and as Jim says, you might not even need the support, but it's there.

I am happy to answer any questions you have on Swing Migration options on 
this project you are planning. I'm going to just post this reply now and 
then add another reply separately to address some of the key technical and 
strategic concerns I think that you and others should be aware of about 
comparing Swing Migration vs MS whitepaper approach.


- Jeff Middleton SBS-MVP
YCST@SBSmigration.com


"Jim" <jim@nospam.com> wrote in message 
news:ogn4h55rnse7rvghglv28trkkin2qroppk@4ax.com...
> Hi Cliff,
>
> Some very valid points, thank you.
>
> When i bought the 2000 to 2003 Swing kit I paid for it myself, and
> didn't really ned any support - one email to Jeff, at which point he
> sent me a much later (and much more accurate) PDF than I'd been able
> to download at time of purchase. But I've then used it for half a
> dozen migrations since then.
>
> I don't anticipate needing support. Google is a great resource, and
> timezones aren't a problem either. BUT I did find Jeff's kit to be
> superb, and I have no reason to think that the 2003 to 2008 kit will
> be any different.  Besides, I suspect there will more migrations on
> the way......
>
>
> Thanks all. Looks like I'll be buying the kit again.
>
>
>
> Jim
>
>
> On Sun, 29 Nov 2009 04:02:53 -0700, "Cliff Galiher"
> <cgaliher@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>Jim, here's my take:
>>
>>The MS documentation is a perfectly serviceable migration path, but it 
>>does
>>have drawbacks.  These aren't secrets, and I think the swing website 
>>speaks
>>for itself, but here is the quick summary.
>>
>>The MS path has no support.  You use the documentation and you push 
>>through.
>>Acceptable for an experienced migrator, but support is worth money.  The
>>swing kit comes with support.
>>
>>The swing kit is a drop and replace model, the MS is an upgrade-style 
>>model.
>>Which you use may very well be dictated by resources available to you.
>>
>>The MS path is free.  The Swing version is not.  Obviously.
>>
>>Now, on to a few finer points that aren't really pros or cons, but are
>>things you may not have considered.
>>
>>A swing kit may cost as much as you are getting paid, but the knowledge 
>>you
>>gain can be reused and reapplied to other scenarios. That may be worth it.
>>
>>$200, as Susan pointed out, is ridiculously low for a migration, even for 
>>a
>>friend.
>>
>>Your friend owns "many" local businesses?  One can assume that to own more
>>than one means that he is somewhat successful.  HE should be willing to
>>invest in his business, and you should be able to charge a reasonable 
>>rate.
>>There is a friend discount, and then there is letting yourself be taken
>>advantage of.
>>
>>Many of my clients are my clients because they were friends first.  When 
>>it
>>came time for them to decide who to use, they chose me.  And they pay me 
>>for
>>my services.  The gentleman that owns the bar that I installed the
>>point-of-sales system?  He doesn't give me free booze, so why should I 
>>give
>>him free service?  My friend that owns the hardware store doesn't give me 
>>a
>>$500 band saw for $200.  He may give it to me at cost ($450?) but that's 
>>the
>>best I'd get, so I charge him similarly.  A good friend discount, but not
>>selling the farm for it.
>>
>>In short you'd be a patron of a friends' business because you respect the
>>friend and he does good business.  He should be willing to return the 
>>favor
>>and patron your business because you are good at it, not because you beat
>>everybody else's prices by thousands.
>>
>>But I digress.  I suppose you don't need someone preaching to you about 
>>how
>>to run your business.  So take the above as just some advice from a
>>long-time small business advocate, nothing more.  I'll get down from my 
>>soap
>>box now.  :)
>>
>>-Cliff
>>
>>
>>
>>"Jim" <jim@nospam.com> wrote in message
>>news:k333h5lq3tnef36q424q339kh2cp9sm373@4ax.com...
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> I'm about to embark on some SBS2003 R2 to SBS2008 upgrades. I
>>> previously purchased Jeff's excellent Swing Migration toolkit, and
>>> used it for both SBS2000 to SBS2003 and SBS2003 to SBS2003 (new tin)
>>> migrations.
>>>
>>> I see that there's a Microsoft document on migrating SBS2003 to
>>> SBS2008 (http://tinyurl.com/64lja3). It's migrating to new hardware
>>> (necessary anyway, x86 to x64) and assigning a new server name.
>>>
>>> Can anyone give me their war stories on SBS2003 R2 to SBS2008
>>> migrations? Jeff's kit was excellent, but I'm an independent engineer
>>> so have to pay for stuff myself, and it's $200 (and the exchange rate
>>> was better then too!). Without wishing to encroach on Jeff's
>>> intellectual property, can anyone tell me the rough concepts of the
>>> 2003 to 2008 swing routine that Jeff uses? Is it via TempDC again? The
>>> Microsoft document is 80-odd pages, my SwingIt kit was hundreds.
>>>
>>> Thanks in advance for comments. And if Jeff is able to pitch in as
>>> well, that would be great. I'm happy to re-purchase the kit IF it
>>> makes sense, but $200 is a lot when I only get paid �200 for a
>>> migration. What are the real selling points of doing it Jeff's way?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Jim
>
>
> 

Because Jim asked about this and he is a past customer of SBSmigration.com, 
I want to answer the technical and business perspective he's requested. I'm 
going to present a brief outline of why "to Swing or Not" which will include 
some brief orientation for people who may not be familiar with Swing 
Migration concepts. It's also important to understand how Swing Migration 
for 2008 has advanced from earlier 2003 series. The benefits are similar now 
as before. However, many people fail to grasp why Swing Migration is 
different than the MS whitepaper approach because they haven't yet conceived 
of how such a complex project can be made more manageable and predictable.




What is a Swing Migration?

A Swing Migration for SBS 2008 is based upon the simple concept: You migrate 
your domain and your data without your production server being involved in 
the technical process. Your originalDC isn't modified, typically isn't 
updated at all at any point. Your fallback option during all of construction 
phase is basically to do nothing, you haven't modified the OriginalDC. 
During the transition day deployment, your fallback option is to unplug the 
new server and put the original server back online again. The point of 
regret where you have more work to do is when you have reconnected your 
production workstations or connect your new Exchange to handle new email. 
Everything can still be rolled back but it becomes a bit more complicated to 
bring the changes backward, but significantly less complicated than the MS 
migration would be at that point, or at any point earlier is always a fact.

The TempDC construction (also in step by step detail) is not complicated, it 
produces a clean new machine with your original AD preserved. It's exactly 
what you would want for a predictable source server. This approach ensures 
that there's no mystery about what happens in the SBS 2008 Setup sequence.



Why is this less complex?

The number one mistake to make is thinking: My server and domain are running 
okay now, it must be healthy enough to do an SBS 2008 Migration Mode 
upgrade. Wrong, Virtually none of the existing SBS 2003 operations I ever 
see would succeesfully host the MS Whitepaper upgrade path without tuning, 
compliance changes, updates and .....yes....practice first.

However, MOST DOMAIN COULD SWING without more than 15 minutes of preparation 
or review to your existing domain and server. I provide a 12 item checklist 
to review, and it doesn't include any service pack updates or patch 
configuration on your OriginalDC. If you have any experience managing SBS 
servers, you can probably complete the review in under 30 minutes.

Perhaps 1 in 4 environment need about 45-60 minutes supplemental preparation 
to fix a Journal Wrap error or misguided DNS settings. But with Swing, 
that's it.  We handle all the technical work outside of your production 
operations. It's still technical, but it's repeatible, predictable and 
productive becase the work is handled in an environment and procedure where 
there's nothing to undo in your production domain or server. It hasn't been 
changed.

The MS whitepaper outline has no other option than to instruct you to 
prepare the existing domain and DC as if you were going to run it forever 
because you must have it in optimal condition to even start the migration 
path construction! It's just not that easy to say "these errors or 
configuration problems won't block SBS setup" when you are talking about a 
machine that has been in operations for years. 3rd party applications, dirty 
registry, stray security configurations, odd DLL conditions. Not only that, 
but the server still has an operational profile you have to maintain.

With MS whitepaper preparations you are obligated to fix everything first. 
With Swing Migration we have to option to ignore and delete anything we want 
in order to have a simpler migration and more predictable result. The new 
machine can be built to provide us just what we need without worrying about 
legacy configurations issues unless you value that. The Swing It!! Kit 
identifies and helps you address what's important, and you proceed with 
exactly what you need.



Is a Swing Migration less technically complex?

The project is complex. Swing Migration makes it extremely manageable, far 
less risk. Swing Migration directly addresses exactly what needs to be done 
in a uniform reference. Best of all, the technical work is done on a 
separate TempDC, isolated from production domain....it's safe. It's faster 
because we can delete things in AD working offline rather than repair them 
on a production server still running with the need to keep that server 
running. The OriginalDC is unchanged, the TempDC is safe to work on.



Is a Swing Migration Faster?

Typically yes, almost always. But you must make a fair comparison to 
understand this. Swing Migration eliminates most of the "preparation" work 
on the production environment. It also eliminates essentially all work on a 
"per user" or "per workstation" basis. There is not "visit every 
workstation" task unless you choose a course that requires that. (Transition 
from ISA Server environments does require resetting the ISA client 
configuration and your browser.)

The data migration is typically faster because it's optimized. It does 
require that you restore data from a backup, it's not an over the wire file 
copy. But with disk imaging in particular, restoring your data from a disk 
based backup is typically faster then over the wire.

Exchange migration is typically faster because the environment is cleaned 
up. You also have the option to make the transition in less than 1 hr if you 
are comfortable delaying the mailbox move until a later time (essentially 
what is the only way the MS mode works). So this means you can test and 
repeat the mailbox/publid folder migration in advance with Swing Migration 
as opposed to testing on your live server with MS migration path.

SBS setup and server construction is essentially equivalent time requirement 
with Swing or MS method. However, if something fails in your construction 
sequence, you typically can recovery more efficiently and with less risk 
using Swing. Nothing to undo in production operations and you have 
convenient milestones to fallback to on your "offline construction".




The Swing Migration project path is designed and optimized for results and 
process:

- Consultants: Work offsite, in advance, minimal preparation, optimized for 
repetition of a consistent process
- Business Owners: The construction and testing is conducted independent of 
the actual deployment.
- Staff Experience: The workstations are unchanged, same profiles, same 
Outlook, same logon, same UNC path, all scripts and most recently used 
documents are in the same place. It's their same user experience after the 
migration as before
- Application Compatibility: Same UNC path, same shares, policys, user 
profiles preserved.
- Outlook: Resumes working without rebuilding OST, without PST exports and 
imports (unless that's your preference)
- Exchange: Moving the Information Store intact means you can test in 
advance with simple steps - copy the database and mount it.
- Consultants: No break in UNC path means no experimentation or remedial 
work at the workstations. When you finish building the server and restoring 
the data...you are finished with the project as a whole.
- Business Owners: Hiring a consultant who has done a Swing Migration means 
they already know the process and tasks to be completed in a predictable 
sequence of construction. There's not a lot of "on the job training" or 
learning what's different about this project. Anything to be learned can be 
done in advance, not at the customer's office with the business down.
- Consultants and IT Staff: Once you learn the project construction path, 
you can repeat it time after time in the same amount of time or faster 
because the variations in the unique aspects of the customer environment 
only affect the post-setup installation of the new applications, not so much 
the preparation or troubleshooting of the production server to just get 
started.



How are all these benefiits possible if it uses the same SBS 2008 Setup to 
install?

SBS 2008 Setup uses designations of "source" server and "destination" 
server. We give it exactly what it wants as a source.

To simplify the project we add a simple, new, clean, built to specification 
TempDC with other than being a healthy DC has no special requirements in 
your production domain. This healthy TempDC is then disconnected from the 
production domain, and now you work through a predictible sequence of tasks 
to eliminate all the conditions that block SBS 2008 setup or are conditions 
that complicate the migration path as a whole. This cleanup has a specific 
set of tasks, it takes a specific and predictable amount of time to do these 
tasks, and the results are that the SBS 2008 Setup will run predictably from 
the TempDC as your source server. The Swing It!! Kit guides you through what 
you need to do to complete the migration without you having to go do a lot 
of research....it's all been done for you.

You work proceeds offline, essentially working in isolation in a lab context 
separate from the production domain so that your work on any issues has no 
affect or potential impact on production. Once you complete the construction 
of the SBS 2008, you can now test the entire deployment sequence...in a 
lab...or if you are confident in your success, you can deploy your new 
server with your downtime equivalent to the time it takes to restore your 
data onto the new server. Everything including the Exchange migration can be 
tested offline in order to identify and resolve any issues that might lie 
ahead. You can test with moving a production workstation into operation and 
back.



What if something goes wrong in the migration as you proceed?

It's critical to understand that when you work a migration from SBS 2003 to 
SBS 2008 using the MS Whitepaper approach, you may be 10-15 hrs or more into 
the project when you first confront a particular problem that may complicate 
your deployment in such a way that you really prefer to abort. With the MS 
Migration path, you would likely need to abandon all of your prior 
construction work and perform a disaster recovery of your originalDC and 
production domain. This would also mean rollback of the Exchange environment 
and then determining your best course for recovery of your data in 
transition or updated.

By comparison, with Swing Migration you are building "in parallel" 
construction while the production domain is running unchanged. This allows 
you to construct in incremental "milestones". Completing construction of the 
TempDCis a milestone. Completing SBS 2008 Setup is milestone. Completing all 
your 3rd party installation, updates and testing is another milestone. Each 
milestone is working with an open timeline and typically without the need to 
every go further back than the last milestone, and the option test forward 
to the final tasks of the entire project. All without risk.

You new server is entirely completed, built including all 3rd party 
applications and configuration, everything tested and prepared for 
transition prior to the deployment date. You can work at your own pace in 
construction, obtain support from whatever sources you value including 3rd 
party product support for Line of Business applications. This means that you 
can KNOW IT WILL WORK when you begin your actual deployment tasks. For 
consultants this means you can do the construction and testing in your 
office, on you schedule...no weekend work required for any of the 
construction and testing. The only business down or business interuption 
part of the project is the literal data move.



I'm concerned about Exchange. How long will I be down?

Your Exchange Information Store remains in production operations during the 
entire construction period, even if you work for a month or more in 
preparations and testing, or just do construction in 1-2 days as your 
preference. Your downtime for the store relocation can be as little as 1 hr 
for the entire production environment, and this can be handled at your 
convenience. The ability to do this migration in 12-20 hrs comes from 
experience...there's no substitute. The project is large scale and detailed, 
you really can't read about it and understand it, you have to do it. The 
Swing It Kit presents the entire project outline in step by step format, 
more detailed the the MS whitepaper and using an optimized construction 
path.

The most common path of transition is to complete the mailbox move over a 
weekend, and many IT people will prefer to have the Information Stores 
offline (locked out from user access or Internet updates). If you use backup 
MX records or a typical hosted spam management service, you won't lose any 
mail. Your mail is queued until you bring your servers online. You can bring 
either your OriginalDC or the new FinalDC online to collect the queued mail 
at that point. All you need to do is decide which one you are more 
comfortable with. If you encounter any problem during the transition to 
substitute your new server for the original server, you original server is 
still unmodified. You can plug it back in and go back to work.

And yet, you can test the entire Exchange migration in advance with a recent 
backup of the production stores. This means you will be confident of the 
outcome of the mailbox and public folder moves. For in-house IT this is an 
obvious preparation to test. For consultants, it's not only obvious, it's 
billable quality control work you can measure and present to your customer 
as a value. Best of all, even if the test of the mailbox move runs for 16 
hrs, you don't have to watch it run, it can run on a bench while you do 
normal work day events the week prior to your actual deployment date.



Does Swing Migration provide a compliant server configuration?

Typical preparation of your existing production server can typically be 
addressed in 15 minutes to 1 hr. There's no service pack requirement, no 
patch requirement, no universal analysis with the SBS BPA. A Swing Migration 
can be performed from a domain and server in almost any initial condition 
provided we can simply add a TempDC and complete the DCpromo. From there, 
everything is addressed offline.

We handle all required compliance for the SBS Setup by performing all that 
compliance preparation on a much simpler TempDC...no complications because 
it is scratch built and optimized for this purpose. Our critical service 
pack and configuration details are addressed on a clean new machine....built 
offline. In fact, if you wish to build your TempDC using Win/Exch 2003 
media, you have a totally open timeline, no 21 day limit.

Swing Migration takes your project awat from a "live experiment" on your 
production into a clean, instead it's an open timeline "lab process" you 
approach methodically, at your own pace, you can deploy once you have tested 
it to your satisfaction and are you have actually seen the results you want.

Swing Migration provides an open timeline, and compatibility to ANY PRIOR 
VERSION of Windows, Exchange or SBS. This includes the option to do a Swing 
Migration from NT, 2000, 2003 platforms. A Swing Migration outline for 2008 
platforms is coming out very soon.

The finished construction provides you with a 100% compliant construction of 
SBS 2008. You do not use the MS Whitepaper, you don't need the MS Migration 
Mode Panel, but you can use all the SBS 2008 Console Wizards to accomplish 
every task the MS migration path provides as a feature.

We don't need the MS Migration Wizard Console because every essential wizard 
is built into the SBS Console. So many of the Migration Wizard tasks are 
manual and documentation based, it doesn't make sense to have that confusion 
with the Swing It!! Kit reference that is complete and optimized for this 
construction path.

The construction of the new SBS 2008 builds your new machine with the same 
name, same IP, same configuration appearance as the original server. Your 
Outlook resumes working as before and identifies the new location of your 
mailbox while resuming use of your OST file, you desktops are unchanged, and 
all UNC path is preserved. Your shared folders are recreated effortlessly 
using a tool with the Swing It!! Kit so they have the same names, 
descriptions and security. You can continue to use the same folder 
redirection as before, or you may adopt new SBS 2008 standards if you wish.



- Jeff Middleton SBS-MVP
YCST@SBSmigration.com



"Jim" <jim@nospam.com> wrote in message 
news:op84h51psla7ighgsqbu1s2pick3l9h4vv@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 28 Nov 2009 17:30:20 -0800, Susan Bradley
> <sbradcpa@pacbell.net> wrote:
>
>>Jim wrote:
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> I'm about to embark on some SBS2003 R2 to SBS2008 upgrades. I
>>> previously purchased Jeff's excellent Swing Migration toolkit, and
>>> used it for both SBS2000 to SBS2003 and SBS2003 to SBS2003 (new tin)
>>> migrations.
>>>
>>> I see that there's a Microsoft document on migrating SBS2003 to
>>> SBS2008 (http://tinyurl.com/64lja3). It's migrating to new hardware
>>> (necessary anyway, x86 to x64) and assigning a new server name.
>>>
>>> Can anyone give me their war stories on SBS2003 R2 to SBS2008
>>> migrations? Jeff's kit was excellent, but I'm an independent engineer
>>> so have to pay for stuff myself, and it's $200 (and the exchange rate
>>> was better then too!). Without wishing to encroach on Jeff's
>>> intellectual property, can anyone tell me the rough concepts of the
>>> 2003 to 2008 swing routine that Jeff uses? Is it via TempDC again? The
>>> Microsoft document is 80-odd pages, my SwingIt kit was hundreds.
>>>
>>> Thanks in advance for comments. And if Jeff is able to pitch in as
>>> well, that would be great. I'm happy to re-purchase the kit IF it
>>> makes sense, but $200 is a lot when I only get paid �200 for a
>>> migration. What are the real selling points of doing it Jeff's way?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Jim
>>If you are only getting paid 200 pounds for a migration, dude, you are
>>vastly under billing.  Most migrations JeffM or otherwise are 20 hours
>>or more depending on the timing of the exchange data move.
>>
>>yes there's a temp DC again.
>>
>>
>>Both work, the MS way you need to ensure that the AD is clean going in.
>>
>>Jeff's way leave the SBS 2003 box intact so that you have a straight
>>roll back plan.  But both ways are going to be more than 200 pounds of
>>time to do a migration.
>>
>>I did the MS way and I kept myself with a back door because I used the
>>Sysinternals DisktoVHD tool to make an exact copy of my SBS 2003 should
>>something go wrong.
>>
>>MS way you have to get the AD to clean.
>>
>>JeffM way you build a server that gets to that clean AD state.
>>
>>IMHO it more depends on how confident you are in the state of that AD.
>
> Thanks Susan and Bill.
>
> I'm pretty sure the AD is clean. One server is an original SBS2003 R2
> install, the other is an SBS 2003 R2 install that was created via
> Swing from an existing SBS 2003 R2 install (we'd outgrown the
> hardware).
>
> Jeff's original kit that I purchased was excellent, and I've no qualms
> about re-purchasing it for 2003>2008 IF it's worthwhile. Back then
> there was no Microsoft way of doing it, no answer file, etc. But now
> there is, hence my concerns about buying something that isn't a
> necessity.
>
> As for the ���� it's a family friend who owns lots of local
> businesses, hence the low ���.
>
> Hmm.......
>
>
>
>
>
> Jim 

In article <ugZf1yScKHA.4724@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl>, 
jeff@cfisolutions.com says...
> Because Jim asked about this and he is a past customer of SBSmigration.com, 
> I want to answer the technical and business perspective he's requested. I'm 
> going to present a brief outline of why "to Swing or Not" which will include 
> some brief orientation for people who may not be familiar with Swing 
> Migration concepts. It's also important to understand how Swing Migration 
> for 2008 has advanced from earlier 2003 series. The benefits are similar now 
> as before. However, many people fail to grasp why Swing Migration is 
> different than the MS whitepaper approach because they haven't yet conceived 
> of how such a complex project can be made more manageable and predictable.
> 

Jeff, I've done a swing many times, after having done it the "hard way" 
many times - I must say that Swing has made life easy (as a consultant) 
and also gives customers that warm fuzzy feeling when a migration take 
only an hour of their actual business time out of their day.

I can not imagine doing a migration without using the swing, unless it 
was a 1-5 station migration using a different domain name.

Congrats on making a fine document/procedure for us!

-- 
You can't trust your best friends, your five senses, only the little 
voice inside you that most civilians don't even hear -- Listen to that.  
Trust yourself.
spam999free@rrohio.com (remove 999 for proper email address)

Jim (another Jim),

Thank you, that's very kind of you to share your encouragement and 
experience.

Most of the people I get feedback from on SBS based migration projects where 
there is a change in platform versions are charging at least $2000-3000.

I fear for survival for the folks who figure "my last migration" 3 yrs ago 
was $1000, so that's what the customer expects and what I'll charge. That 
may be true, but that doesn't make it right or even fair. That price 
probably doesn't get you through the validation checks and SBS Setup spin 
cycle with the MS whitepaper approach. The balance of configuration and data 
transition is still yet to come, and it's not trivial.

The IT consultants and the customers need to have proper expectations that 
the combination of complexity, risk and skill required for migration to SBS 
2008 justifies everyone involved getting educated that this is not a trivial 
project.

I think it's terrific that folks like you are sharing your experience on 
doing this work with SBS 2008 via Swing as well as MS whitepaper approach 
because it's just very hard to gain feedback on what this project involves 
without having yet done one. Even a clean lab experience is educational, but 
it doesn't tell the entire story.


- Jeff Middleton SBS-MVP
YCST@SBSmigration.com





"Jim" <jim@dontwantspam.com> wrote in message 
news:heudc2$19d7$1@energise.enta.net...
> Just done a 60 user SBS2003 to SBS2008 Swing Migration and I can safely 
> say that Jeff methods and his help and support are second to none.
>
> Worth every penny.
>
> If this is your first time at this I'd definitely do a swing, and unless 
> they were smaller installations without too many complications then I'd 
> say you'd always be best to do a swing.
>
> Check out the Microsoft Press Small Business Server 2008 Administrators 
> Companion...even they give Jeff an enthusiastic endorsement.
>
> But �200 ?????
>
> Jim. ( Another Jim )
>
>
>
>
> "Susan Bradley" <sbradcpa@pacbell.net> wrote in message 
> news:urna#kRcKHA.6096@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...
>> Jim wrote:
>>> On Sun, 29 Nov 2009 10:14:01 -0500, Leythos <spam999free@rrohio.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> In article <uluhCOOcKHA.1648@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl>, cgaliher@gmail.com 
>>>> says...
>>>>> $200, as Susan pointed out, is ridiculously low for a migration, even 
>>>>> for a friend.
>>>>>
>>>> That's almost funny, $200 for a migration. We charge between $2,000 and 
>>>> $3,000 for migrations from 03 to 08 and most consider that cheap.
>>>
>>>
>>> Guys, don't all get hung up on the price. This is a family friend and
>>> it's a small family business employing 9 people. Small fry, nothing
>>> major. There's just me, doing this at weekends for him.
>>>
>>> I didn't want to start a discussion on who can extort the most ���
>>> from a customer, I really just wanted to find out of the Swing
>>> approach was best for 03 to 08.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Jim
>> This isn't extortion.  This is realizing that this isn't a $200 project.
>>
>>
>> I would disagree that there's no support for the MS method, but it is 
>> newsgroup=free or phone call=pay.
>>
>> I made the decision to use the MS way because I'd done it more often, I 
>> ran though the entire thing in a virtual test first and knew what I'd be 
>> facing.
>>
>> If you do your homework and clean up your AD ahead of time, it works 
>> quite nicely.
>>
>> If you don't know how clean that AD is you may be better served with 
>> swing.
>>
>> You chastise us for getting stuck on a $200 project, but you got stuck on 
>> paying $200 for the migration kit.
>>
>> We're saying that the migration true costs are so much larger than $200 
>> that neither should be a factor.
> 

Hi Jeff,

Many thanks for three excellent and very detailed postings. I've read
them, and will read them again in the morning. 

I currently look after 5 sites for this friend, all based locally, and
one other site that's 600 miles away. The remote one is on SBS 2000 so
has tended to be neglected, however it's likely that they will get the
old server when we do one of the 03 to 08 migrations.  They will then
get migrated to 03 (seems odd I know, but money is tight...very
tight). All the local sites are on SBS 2003 R2.

I'm currently at the stage of persuading this friend to buy the
hardware to upgrade one of the local sites. I'm proposing that we go
from SBS 2003 R2 Premium to SBS 2008 Standard, since they no longer
have the need for ISA or SQL. But all this is for Jan/Feb, we haven't
even specced the hardware yet.

But the postings in this thread have been excellent, and I'm pretty
sure I'll be going with the SwingIt kit. It was an excellent resource
to me last time, and will probably be a lifesaver this time.

Hopefully I can persuade my friend that yes, he really does need to
upgrade, and he should do it soon....

Thanks to everyone who has posted their comments and viewpoints.



Jim



On Sun, 29 Nov 2009 13:53:18 -0600, "Jeff Middleton [SBS-MVP]"
<jeff@cfisolutions.com> wrote:

>Jim,
>
>First of all I want to thank you for sharing your endorsement of your past 
>experience in using my Swing It!! Kit for a 2003 series migration. I'm glad 
>that you found it was a good investment for you then. I also want to thank 
>everyone else who posted additional feedback and encouragements here on what 
>I'm providing now through SBSmigration.com. I generally prefer to stay out 
>of public discussions where comparisons are being debated, I think those who 
>have experiences to share should share them without me butting in. But in 
>this case, Jim asked me to comment and he's already familar with using Swing 
>It!! Kit approach. So I'm going to post 2 replies, this being the first as a 
>general thought on what I'm doing in the way of support and development. I 
>decided to let the discussion run first just to be fair for anyone with a 
>comment to make. The second post I'll make is more of a head to head 
>comparison on features or process with the MS whitepaper method. Most all of 
>this is on my website, but sometimes it helps to rephrase things.
>
>Jim, I'll go as far as saying that nobody should offer to do this migration 
>on the assumption that it's a weekend job. It isn't. I'll also say that (in 
>my opinion) any IT consultant needs to keep in mind that project like a 
>server replacement or domain migration put the consultant exposed to "what 
>if things go really wrong" and now you are in much deeper than planned. For 
>that reason, I would always suggest that even among friends, you should 
>establish a working agreement that defines "what I will do for you as 
>normal" and what would mean "we aren't in a normal situation anymore". By 
>that I mean, if you are willing to write off 2 days work (or whatever you 
>are comfortable with), then you need to communicate that appropriately. 
>"I'll replace your server and migrate it to completion as long as that 
>requires 20 hrs or less work hours on-site and no issues with your 
>workstations, applications or user configurations are outside of what the 
>reference I will use says are normal. For any additional issues I will 
>charge my normal rate of $--.--." If this is to be a Swing Migration, I 
>would recommend you cite the Kit documentation as your reference, and the 
>"if all else fails" option is you put the original server back online 
>without any change. This limits your liability (mostly) to "Jim loses a 
>weekend for nothing gained" if you find you are over your head. Your 
>customer/friend isn't migrated, but he's no worse off. This is an essential 
>option of Swing Migration, you can back away even if it's more likely that 
>you will in fact succeed with follow-up work no matter what.
>
>This is a far more complex project than most people realize until they have 
>not only down a lab test run-through, but also actually put a production 
>domain through to completion at which point you actually comprehend how much 
>is going on.
>
>Jim, I also want to make an initial response on a comment you made earlier.
>
>- You said "you didn't really need my help" to do the Swing Migration 
>because the documentation you had gave you what you needed to understand 
>what to do. EXACTLY. That remains the point today. I'm trying to give people 
>complete instructions (far more robust than what MS provides) that explain 
>everything you need to do to perform a safe and predictable Swing Migration.
>- You also said I followed-up with you with updated documentation. EXACTLY. 
>I follow-up and work with my customers. I do support from end to end on the 
>project with them, it's included in the purchase of the Kit.
>- I also do work on updating information and in some cases I will provide 
>that via the SBSmigration.com website, sometimes with updated tools, 
>sometimes by virtue of the support forums I operate that are specific to 
>Swing Migration projects...and in some cases I do full rewrites of the 
>documentation as I see fits the need of a different audience. That's the 
>main change over the last 5 years...the people who want to do a Swing 
>Migration are a somewhat different demographic. Frankly, a lot of them need 
>and prefer much more tutorial type information. Therefore the current Kit 
>references are more tutorial and checklist based, step by step with lots of 
>detail. Experiences IT people will likely work mostly from skimming and the 
>checklists on each section of the project path.
>- The style and detail of documentation I wrote in 2004 was intended for 
>very skilled IT consultants, and over time I have been fleshing out the 
>documentation to fit the needs of entry level technicians while explaining a 
>process that mostly only experienced technicians would otherwise be 
>comfortable with. I'm aware that most people need much more detail on how to 
>do this project than they will get from the MS whitepaper or the style 
>original Swing It Kit!! documentation I wrote 5 years. The Swing It!! Kit 
>for the 2003 to 2008 scenario is extensively detailed, and the tools 
>included with it are much more sophisticated.
>
>There is no way to avoid the complexity of a migration from 2003 to SBS 
>2008, the project is going to be complex. What Swing It Kitt does is 
>provides you a migration path of construction that essentially eliminates 
>the risk to your production domain, eliminates modification to your 
>production server, and provides you step by step tasks in far greater detail 
>than the MS whitepaper. I've also provided you a path that is a cleaner 
>result and doesn't require you to reconfigure your workstations, your user 
>environments or even your Outlook settings.
>
>To a great degree, to appreciate the full value of doing a Swing Migration 
>it becomes necessary to get your head around what the Microsoft whitepaper 
>migration really encompasses. I generally tell people who want a comparison 
>that they should first go print the MS Whitepaper, then follow all the links 
>in it to print those references as well. Print the Release Notes, and then 
>go find all the updated details from the SBSblog. Still not done, go run the 
>SBS BPA and start looking at everything it says to do, and then don't forget 
>to ask around a bit more. The Swing It!! Kit is intended to replace that 
>experience with one that is compiled, organized and optimized for the first 
>time SBS migration project or the consultant doing it repeatedly.
>
>There's this problem of you don't understand how complicated this project is 
>until you understand the entire project, and that you mostly don't 
>understand until you have completed the entire project once.
>
>I want to close by stating two basic points: If you have never done this 
>project, you will not yet realize the number of details you have to master, 
>so having an organized solution path is important and the MS whitepaper is 
>not complete. (really, ask around....it's not complete)  Secondly, even an 
>IT consultant does need to have a reference to work from because....there's 
>a lot of details involved. I'm providing a resource that optimizes your 
>ability to obtain all the details you need in a format you can use one or 
>repeatedly, and then I'm providing you with specific support of that 
>project. If I thought everyone could finish this project from a dead start 
>within a 2 day weekend, I wouldn't be providing 90 days of support. I'm 
>providing an outline that lets you choose the pace, and support that you can 
>adapt to your pace. The Technician Kit costs less than 1 MS Support call for 
>a single issue question, yet the Support I'm providing is end to end on the 
>entire project. You can get another project supported for $120/project with 
>the same 90 days unlimited support from end-to-end if you maintain a 
>subscription. The purpose of the subscription is to keep you up to date and 
>with access to the support and resources you need for $10/month. If anyone 
>thinks I'm pricing myself out of the value curve with that offer, I can only 
>tell you that I'm not trying to make support an income stream, I'm trying to 
>make word of mouth understanding that this is a project with a predictable 
>solution path available. It's my hope that everyone who uses my Kit will 
>need no support because at that point, I'm probably doing an outstanding 
>job....and as Jim says, you might not even need the support, but it's there.
>
>I am happy to answer any questions you have on Swing Migration options on 
>this project you are planning. I'm going to just post this reply now and 
>then add another reply separately to address some of the key technical and 
>strategic concerns I think that you and others should be aware of about 
>comparing Swing Migration vs MS whitepaper approach.
>
>
>- Jeff Middleton SBS-MVP
>YCST@SBSmigration.com
>
>
>"Jim" <jim@nospam.com> wrote in message 
>news:ogn4h55rnse7rvghglv28trkkin2qroppk@4ax.com...
>> Hi Cliff,
>>
>> Some very valid points, thank you.
>>
>> When i bought the 2000 to 2003 Swing kit I paid for it myself, and
>> didn't really ned any support - one email to Jeff, at which point he
>> sent me a much later (and much more accurate) PDF than I'd been able
>> to download at time of purchase. But I've then used it for half a
>> dozen migrations since then.
>>
>> I don't anticipate needing support. Google is a great resource, and
>> timezones aren't a problem either. BUT I did find Jeff's kit to be
>> superb, and I have no reason to think that the 2003 to 2008 kit will
>> be any different.  Besides, I suspect there will more migrations on
>> the way......
>>
>>
>> Thanks all. Looks like I'll be buying the kit again.
>>
>>
>>
>> Jim
>>
>>
>> On Sun, 29 Nov 2009 04:02:53 -0700, "Cliff Galiher"
>> <cgaliher@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>Jim, here's my take:
>>>
>>>The MS documentation is a perfectly serviceable migration path, but it 
>>>does
>>>have drawbacks.  These aren't secrets, and I think the swing website 
>>>speaks
>>>for itself, but here is the quick summary.
>>>
>>>The MS path has no support.  You use the documentation and you push 
>>>through.
>>>Acceptable for an experienced migrator, but support is worth money.  The
>>>swing kit comes with support.
>>>
>>>The swing kit is a drop and replace model, the MS is an upgrade-style 
>>>model.
>>>Which you use may very well be dictated by resources available to you.
>>>
>>>The MS path is free.  The Swing version is not.  Obviously.
>>>
>>>Now, on to a few finer points that aren't really pros or cons, but are
>>>things you may not have considered.
>>>
>>>A swing kit may cost as much as you are getting paid, but the knowledge 
>>>you
>>>gain can be reused and reapplied to other scenarios. That may be worth it.
>>>
>>>$200, as Susan pointed out, is ridiculously low for a migration, even for 
>>>a
>>>friend.
>>>
>>>Your friend owns "many" local businesses?  One can assume that to own more
>>>than one means that he is somewhat successful.  HE should be willing to
>>>invest in his business, and you should be able to charge a reasonable 
>>>rate.
>>>There is a friend discount, and then there is letting yourself be taken
>>>advantage of.
>>>
>>>Many of my clients are my clients because they were friends first.  When 
>>>it
>>>came time for them to decide who to use, they chose me.  And they pay me 
>>>for
>>>my services.  The gentleman that owns the bar that I installed the
>>>point-of-sales system?  He doesn't give me free booze, so why should I 
>>>give
>>>him free service?  My friend that owns the hardware store doesn't give me 
>>>a
>>>$500 band saw for $200.  He may give it to me at cost ($450?) but that's 
>>>the
>>>best I'd get, so I charge him similarly.  A good friend discount, but not
>>>selling the farm for it.
>>>
>>>In short you'd be a patron of a friends' business because you respect the
>>>friend and he does good business.  He should be willing to return the 
>>>favor
>>>and patron your business because you are good at it, not because you beat
>>>everybody else's prices by thousands.
>>>
>>>But I digress.  I suppose you don't need someone preaching to you about 
>>>how
>>>to run your business.  So take the above as just some advice from a
>>>long-time small business advocate, nothing more.  I'll get down from my 
>>>soap
>>>box now.  :)
>>>
>>>-Cliff
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>"Jim" <jim@nospam.com> wrote in message
>>>news:k333h5lq3tnef36q424q339kh2cp9sm373@4ax.com...
>>>> Hi all,
>>>>
>>>> I'm about to embark on some SBS2003 R2 to SBS2008 upgrades. I
>>>> previously purchased Jeff's excellent Swing Migration toolkit, and
>>>> used it for both SBS2000 to SBS2003 and SBS2003 to SBS2003 (new tin)
>>>> migrations.
>>>>
>>>> I see that there's a Microsoft document on migrating SBS2003 to
>>>> SBS2008 (http://tinyurl.com/64lja3). It's migrating to new hardware
>>>> (necessary anyway, x86 to x64) and assigning a new server name.
>>>>
>>>> Can anyone give me their war stories on SBS2003 R2 to SBS2008
>>>> migrations? Jeff's kit was excellent, but I'm an independent engineer
>>>> so have to pay for stuff myself, and it's $200 (and the exchange rate
>>>> was better then too!). Without wishing to encroach on Jeff's
>>>> intellectual property, can anyone tell me the rough concepts of the
>>>> 2003 to 2008 swing routine that Jeff uses? Is it via TempDC again? The
>>>> Microsoft document is 80-odd pages, my SwingIt kit was hundreds.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks in advance for comments. And if Jeff is able to pitch in as
>>>> well, that would be great. I'm happy to re-purchase the kit IF it
>>>> makes sense, but $200 is a lot when I only get paid �200 for a
>>>> migration. What are the real selling points of doing it Jeff's way?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Jim
>>
>>
>> 
>

Jim wrote:
> Hi Jeff,
> 
> Many thanks for three excellent and very detailed postings. I've read
> them, and will read them again in the morning. 
> 
> I currently look after 5 sites for this friend, all based locally, and
> one other site that's 600 miles away. The remote one is on SBS 2000 so
> has tended to be neglected, however it's likely that they will get the
> old server when we do one of the 03 to 08 migrations.  They will then
> get migrated to 03 (seems odd I know, but money is tight...very
> tight). All the local sites are on SBS 2003 R2.
> 
> I'm currently at the stage of persuading this friend to buy the
> hardware to upgrade one of the local sites. I'm proposing that we go
> from SBS 2003 R2 Premium to SBS 2008 Standard, since they no longer
> have the need for ISA or SQL. But all this is for Jan/Feb, we haven't
> even specced the hardware yet.
> 
> But the postings in this thread have been excellent, and I'm pretty
> sure I'll be going with the SwingIt kit. It was an excellent resource
> to me last time, and will probably be a lifesaver this time.
> 
> Hopefully I can persuade my friend that yes, he really does need to
> upgrade, and he should do it soon....
> 
> Thanks to everyone who has posted their comments and viewpoints.
> 
> 
> 
> Jim
> 
> 
> 
> On Sun, 29 Nov 2009 13:53:18 -0600, "Jeff Middleton [SBS-MVP]"
> <jeff@cfisolutions.com> wrote:
> 
>> Jim,
>>
>> First of all I want to thank you for sharing your endorsement of your past 
>> experience in using my Swing It!! Kit for a 2003 series migration. I'm glad 
>> that you found it was a good investment for you then. I also want to thank 
>> everyone else who posted additional feedback and encouragements here on what 
>> I'm providing now through SBSmigration.com. I generally prefer to stay out 
>> of public discussions where comparisons are being debated, I think those who 
>> have experiences to share should share them without me butting in. But in 
>> this case, Jim asked me to comment and he's already familar with using Swing 
>> It!! Kit approach. So I'm going to post 2 replies, this being the first as a 
>> general thought on what I'm doing in the way of support and development. I 
>> decided to let the discussion run first just to be fair for anyone with a 
>> comment to make. The second post I'll make is more of a head to head 
>> comparison on features or process with the MS whitepaper method. Most all of 
>> this is on my website, but sometimes it helps to rephrase things.
>>
>> Jim, I'll go as far as saying that nobody should offer to do this migration 
>> on the assumption that it's a weekend job. It isn't. I'll also say that (in 
>> my opinion) any IT consultant needs to keep in mind that project like a 
>> server replacement or domain migration put the consultant exposed to "what 
>> if things go really wrong" and now you are in much deeper than planned. For 
>> that reason, I would always suggest that even among friends, you should 
>> establish a working agreement that defines "what I will do for you as 
>> normal" and what would mean "we aren't in a normal situation anymore". By 
>> that I mean, if you are willing to write off 2 days work (or whatever you 
>> are comfortable with), then you need to communicate that appropriately. 
>> "I'll replace your server and migrate it to completion as long as that 
>> requires 20 hrs or less work hours on-site and no issues with your 
>> workstations, applications or user configurations are outside of what the 
>> reference I will use says are normal. For any additional issues I will 
>> charge my normal rate of $--.--." If this is to be a Swing Migration, I 
>> would recommend you cite the Kit documentation as your reference, and the 
>> "if all else fails" option is you put the original server back online 
>> without any change. This limits your liability (mostly) to "Jim loses a 
>> weekend for nothing gained" if you find you are over your head. Your 
>> customer/friend isn't migrated, but he's no worse off. This is an essential 
>> option of Swing Migration, you can back away even if it's more likely that 
>> you will in fact succeed with follow-up work no matter what.
>>
>> This is a far more complex project than most people realize until they have 
>> not only down a lab test run-through, but also actually put a production 
>> domain through to completion at which point you actually comprehend how much 
>> is going on.
>>
>> Jim, I also want to make an initial response on a comment you made earlier.
>>
>> - You said "you didn't really need my help" to do the Swing Migration 
>> because the documentation you had gave you what you needed to understand 
>> what to do. EXACTLY. That remains the point today. I'm trying to give people 
>> complete instructions (far more robust than what MS provides) that explain 
>> everything you need to do to perform a safe and predictable Swing Migration.
>> - You also said I followed-up with you with updated documentation. EXACTLY. 
>> I follow-up and work with my customers. I do support from end to end on the 
>> project with them, it's included in the purchase of the Kit.
>> - I also do work on updating information and in some cases I will provide 
>> that via the SBSmigration.com website, sometimes with updated tools, 
>> sometimes by virtue of the support forums I operate that are specific to 
>> Swing Migration projects...and in some cases I do full rewrites of the 
>> documentation as I see fits the need of a different audience. That's the 
>> main change over the last 5 years...the people who want to do a Swing 
>> Migration are a somewhat different demographic. Frankly, a lot of them need 
>> and prefer much more tutorial type information. Therefore the current Kit 
>> references are more tutorial and checklist based, step by step with lots of 
>> detail. Experiences IT people will likely work mostly from skimming and the 
>> checklists on each section of the project path.
>> - The style and detail of documentation I wrote in 2004 was intended for 
>> very skilled IT consultants, and over time I have been fleshing out the 
>> documentation to fit the needs of entry level technicians while explaining a 
>> process that mostly only experienced technicians would otherwise be 
>> comfortable with. I'm aware that most people need much more detail on how to 
>> do this project than they will get from the MS whitepaper or the style 
>> original Swing It Kit!! documentation I wrote 5 years. The Swing It!! Kit 
>> for the 2003 to 2008 scenario is extensively detailed, and the tools 
>> included with it are much more sophisticated.
>>
>> There is no way to avoid the complexity of a migration from 2003 to SBS 
>> 2008, the project is going to be complex. What Swing It Kitt does is 
>> provides you a migration path of construction that essentially eliminates 
>> the risk to your production domain, eliminates modification to your 
>> production server, and provides you step by step tasks in far greater detail 
>> than the MS whitepaper. I've also provided you a path that is a cleaner 
>> result and doesn't require you to reconfigure your workstations, your user 
>> environments or even your Outlook settings.
>>
>> To a great degree, to appreciate the full value of doing a Swing Migration 
>> it becomes necessary to get your head around what the Microsoft whitepaper 
>> migration really encompasses. I generally tell people who want a comparison 
>> that they should first go print the MS Whitepaper, then follow all the links 
>> in it to print those references as well. Print the Release Notes, and then 
>> go find all the updated details from the SBSblog. Still not done, go run the 
>> SBS BPA and start looking at everything it says to do, and then don't forget 
>> to ask around a bit more. The Swing It!! Kit is intended to replace that 
>> experience with one that is compiled, organized and optimized for the first 
>> time SBS migration project or the consultant doing it repeatedly.
>>
>> There's this problem of you don't understand how complicated this project is 
>> until you understand the entire project, and that you mostly don't 
>> understand until you have completed the entire project once.
>>
>> I want to close by stating two basic points: If you have never done this 
>> project, you will not yet realize the number of details you have to master, 
>> so having an organized solution path is important and the MS whitepaper is 
>> not complete. (really, ask around....it's not complete)  Secondly, even an 
>> IT consultant does need to have a reference to work from because....there's 
>> a lot of details involved. I'm providing a resource that optimizes your 
>> ability to obtain all the details you need in a format you can use one or 
>> repeatedly, and then I'm providing you with specific support of that 
>> project. If I thought everyone could finish this project from a dead start 
>> within a 2 day weekend, I wouldn't be providing 90 days of support. I'm 
>> providing an outline that lets you choose the pace, and support that you can 
>> adapt to your pace. The Technician Kit costs less than 1 MS Support call for 
>> a single issue question, yet the Support I'm providing is end to end on the 
>> entire project. You can get another project supported for $120/project with 
>> the same 90 days unlimited support from end-to-end if you maintain a 
>> subscription. The purpose of the subscription is to keep you up to date and 
>> with access to the support and resources you need for $10/month. If anyone 
>> thinks I'm pricing myself out of the value curve with that offer, I can only 
>> tell you that I'm not trying to make support an income stream, I'm trying to 
>> make word of mouth understanding that this is a project with a predictable 
>> solution path available. It's my hope that everyone who uses my Kit will 
>> need no support because at that point, I'm probably doing an outstanding 
>> job....and as Jim says, you might not even need the support, but it's there.
>>
>> I am happy to answer any questions you have on Swing Migration options on 
>> this project you are planning. I'm going to just post this reply now and 
>> then add another reply separately to address some of the key technical and 
>> strategic concerns I think that you and others should be aware of about 
>> comparing Swing Migration vs MS whitepaper approach.
>>
>>
>> - Jeff Middleton SBS-MVP
>> YCST@SBSmigration.com
>>
>>
>> "Jim" <jim@nospam.com> wrote in message 
>> news:ogn4h55rnse7rvghglv28trkkin2qroppk@4ax.com...
>>> Hi Cliff,
>>>
>>> Some very valid points, thank you.
>>>
>>> When i bought the 2000 to 2003 Swing kit I paid for it myself, and
>>> didn't really ned any support - one email to Jeff, at which point he
>>> sent me a much later (and much more accurate) PDF than I'd been able
>>> to download at time of purchase. But I've then used it for half a
>>> dozen migrations since then.
>>>
>>> I don't anticipate needing support. Google is a great resource, and
>>> timezones aren't a problem either. BUT I did find Jeff's kit to be
>>> superb, and I have no reason to think that the 2003 to 2008 kit will
>>> be any different.  Besides, I suspect there will more migrations on
>>> the way......
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks all. Looks like I'll be buying the kit again.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Jim
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, 29 Nov 2009 04:02:53 -0700, "Cliff Galiher"
>>> <cgaliher@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Jim, here's my take:
>>>>
>>>> The MS documentation is a perfectly serviceable migration path, but it 
>>>> does
>>>> have drawbacks.  These aren't secrets, and I think the swing website 
>>>> speaks
>>>> for itself, but here is the quick summary.
>>>>
>>>> The MS path has no support.  You use the documentation and you push 
>>>> through.
>>>> Acceptable for an experienced migrator, but support is worth money.  The
>>>> swing kit comes with support.
>>>>
>>>> The swing kit is a drop and replace model, the MS is an upgrade-style 
>>>> model.
>>>> Which you use may very well be dictated by resources available to you.
>>>>
>>>> The MS path is free.  The Swing version is not.  Obviously.
>>>>
>>>> Now, on to a few finer points that aren't really pros or cons, but are
>>>> things you may not have considered.
>>>>
>>>> A swing kit may cost as much as you are getting paid, but the knowledge 
>>>> you
>>>> gain can be reused and reapplied to other scenarios. That may be worth it.
>>>>
>>>> $200, as Susan pointed out, is ridiculously low for a migration, even for 
>>>> a
>>>> friend.
>>>>
>>>> Your friend owns "many" local businesses?  One can assume that to own more
>>>> than one means that he is somewhat successful.  HE should be willing to
>>>> invest in his business, and you should be able to charge a reasonable 
>>>> rate.
>>>> There is a friend discount, and then there is letting yourself be taken
>>>> advantage of.
>>>>
>>>> Many of my clients are my clients because they were friends first.  When 
>>>> it
>>>> came time for them to decide who to use, they chose me.  And they pay me 
>>>> for
>>>> my services.  The gentleman that owns the bar that I installed the
>>>> point-of-sales system?  He doesn't give me free booze, so why should I 
>>>> give
>>>> him free service?  My friend that owns the hardware store doesn't give me 
>>>> a
>>>> $500 band saw for $200.  He may give it to me at cost ($450?) but that's 
>>>> the
>>>> best I'd get, so I charge him similarly.  A good friend discount, but not
>>>> selling the farm for it.
>>>>
>>>> In short you'd be a patron of a friends' business because you respect the
>>>> friend and he does good business.  He should be willing to return the 
>>>> favor
>>>> and patron your business because you are good at it, not because you beat
>>>> everybody else's prices by thousands.
>>>>
>>>> But I digress.  I suppose you don't need someone preaching to you about 
>>>> how
>>>> to run your business.  So take the above as just some advice from a
>>>> long-time small business advocate, nothing more.  I'll get down from my 
>>>> soap
>>>> box now.  :)
>>>>
>>>> -Cliff
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Jim" <jim@nospam.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:k333h5lq3tnef36q424q339kh2cp9sm373@4ax.com...
>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm about to embark on some SBS2003 R2 to SBS2008 upgrades. I
>>>>> previously purchased Jeff's excellent Swing Migration toolkit, and
>>>>> used it for both SBS2000 to SBS2003 and SBS2003 to SBS2003 (new tin)
>>>>> migrations.
>>>>>
>>>>> I see that there's a Microsoft document on migrating SBS2003 to
>>>>> SBS2008 (http://tinyurl.com/64lja3). It's migrating to new hardware
>>>>> (necessary anyway, x86 to x64) and assigning a new server name.
>>>>>
>>>>> Can anyone give me their war stories on SBS2003 R2 to SBS2008
>>>>> migrations? Jeff's kit was excellent, but I'm an independent engineer
>>>>> so have to pay for stuff myself, and it's $200 (and the exchange rate
>>>>> was better then too!). Without wishing to encroach on Jeff's
>>>>> intellectual property, can anyone tell me the rough concepts of the
>>>>> 2003 to 2008 swing routine that Jeff uses? Is it via TempDC again? The
>>>>> Microsoft document is 80-odd pages, my SwingIt kit was hundreds.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks in advance for comments. And if Jeff is able to pitch in as
>>>>> well, that would be great. I'm happy to re-purchase the kit IF it
>>>>> makes sense, but $200 is a lot when I only get paid �200 for a
>>>>> migration. What are the real selling points of doing it Jeff's way?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Jim
>>>
>>>
Premium gives you the ability to HyperV that SBS 2008 and being able to 
service that box from "above" the OS is worth it IMHO.

I don't use ISA or SQL either, I wanted it for the HyperV 1+1 license.

Thanks for making this post.

I can definitely see the benefits of the unchanged UNC paths, and the ease 
of recovery if there's a failure in the migration process.

I do wonder what percentage of migrations hit such blocks--but I can 
certainly see some threads in these groups about such migrations, so they 
certainly do occur.

This makes a clear statement about your method that allows me to consider 
the costs in a reasonable context.


"Jeff Middleton [SBS-MVP]" <jeff@cfisolutions.com> wrote in message 
news:ugZf1yScKHA.4724@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...
> Because Jim asked about this and he is a past customer of 
> SBSmigration.com, I want to answer the technical and business perspective 
> he's requested. I'm going to present a brief outline of why "to Swing or 
> Not" which will include some brief orientation for people who may not be 
> familiar with Swing Migration concepts. It's also important to understand 
> how Swing Migration for 2008 has advanced from earlier 2003 series. The 
> benefits are similar now as before. However, many people fail to grasp why 
> Swing Migration is different than the MS whitepaper approach because they 
> haven't yet conceived of how such a complex project can be made more 
> manageable and predictable.
 

"Jeff Middleton [SBS-MVP]" <jeff@cfisolutions.com> wrote in message 
news:e22FzyScKHA.808@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...
> Jim,
>
> This is a far more complex project than most people realize until they 
> have not only down a lab test run-through, but also actually put a 
> production domain through to completion at which point you actually 
> comprehend how much is going on.
>
> Jim, I also want to make an initial response on a comment you made 
> earlier.
.....>
> To a great degree, to appreciate the full value of doing a Swing Migration 
> it becomes necessary to get your head around what the Microsoft whitepaper 
> migration really encompasses. I generally tell people who want a 
> comparison that they should first go print the MS Whitepaper, then follow 
> all the links in it to print those references as well. Print the Release 
> Notes, and then go find all the updated details from the SBSblog. Still 
> not done, go run the SBS BPA and start looking at everything it says to 
> do, and then don't forget to ask around a bit more. The Swing It!! Kit is 
> intended to replace that experience with one that is compiled, organized 
> and optimized for the first time SBS migration project or the consultant 
> doing it repeatedly.

This resonates well for me.  I didn't do a full-scale test migration.  I did 
build an SBS 2008 install on my new hardware and bring it fully up to 
date--and that time paid off in the final migration when the initial install 
blue-screened several times.  I knew there was nothing wrong with the 
hardware and that it was fully compatible with the OS, so I was able to 
concentrate on vendor-specific driver updates, and that cured the 
blue-screen crash issue swiftly.

Indeed, the Microsoft document is far deeper than the 80+ pages or so you 
start with--to complete the migration and get clean BPA results there are KB 
articles (and comments to the KB articles!) that you must read and follow to 
clean things up--steps that look like a simple bullet point have hours of 
depth involved with live data.  It is a complex project, and you have to 
read carefully and sometimes "between the lines."

I was intrigued the other day to see that Microsoft appeared to be 
publishing a revised version of the migration document.  However, at that 
time the revised document wasn't, in fact posted.  I'll have to go back and 
see if that's changed--I'll be interested to see what changes they've made 
from what I worked with.

Thanks again for the useful posts.
 

Thanks, guys.  I work 28 hours a week for the outfit I migrated, and I did 
the work within that 28 hour time frame--maybe there was some comp time 
earned...

(30 users, new hardware, but no extras!)

I'll forward these to my immediate boss, he'll be pleased.


"Gavin" <gavinREMOVE@stoof.co.uk> wrote in message 
news:heu44u$t27$1@news.eternal-september.org...
> On 2009-11-29 15:14:01 +0000, Leythos <spam999free@rrohio.com> said:
>
>> In article <uluhCOOcKHA.1648@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl>, cgaliher@gmail.com
>> says...
>>> $200, as Susan pointed out, is ridiculously low for a migration, even 
>>> for a
>>> friend.
>>>
>>
>> That's almost funny, $200 for a migration. We charge between $2,000 and
>> $3,000 for migrations from 03 to 08 and most consider that cheap.
>
> *ding*
>
> We rolled over a 30 user site with new hardware, and charged it out at £80 
> per hour, per engineer.
>
> They were happy with that. Although we also provided 4 virtual servers, a 
> new TS, a new mail archiver and a Blackberry Server.
>
> -- 
> Gavin. MCSE, MCITP, MSTS  ACSP 10.5
> http://www.stoof.co.uk
> http://www.twitter.com/gavin_wilby
>