I my VB6 Know The Notes app, which I am currently enhancing with extra
features, I have been using dropdown comboboxes on one or two forms.
Because when one has the alternative, textboxes, one has to do loads
of checking, like is it numeric only, what happens in
LostFocus/GotFocus, what happens when you select a menu (no LostFocus
triggered), range checks etc. The combobox does away with all those
since its list contains only valid values, so it is just not possible
for the user to select an invalid value.

Obviously, there will be plenty of cases where you may need to enter a
large value and it won't be possible to have a very large number of
possible values preloaded in the combobox, but for data like MIDI
data, where many numbers (e.g. Note Number, Velocity) are in the range
0 to 127, it seems as if the combobox is a much better control to use
than the textbox.

I'm also using typomatic code from the web (Aaron Young) to enhance
usability. (This code requires Style = 2 - Dropdown List)

What do others think about replacing textboxes with comboboxes like
this? 

MM

On 22/02/2010 16:14, MM wrote:
> I my VB6 Know The Notes app, which I am currently enhancing with extra
> features, I have been using dropdown comboboxes on one or two forms.
> Because when one has the alternative, textboxes, one has to do loads
> of checking, like is it numeric only, what happens in
> LostFocus/GotFocus, what happens when you select a menu (no LostFocus
> triggered), range checks etc. The combobox does away with all those
> since its list contains only valid values, so it is just not possible
> for the user to select an invalid value.
>
> Obviously, there will be plenty of cases where you may need to enter a
> large value and it won't be possible to have a very large number of
> possible values preloaded in the combobox, but for data like MIDI
> data, where many numbers (e.g. Note Number, Velocity) are in the range
> 0 to 127, it seems as if the combobox is a much better control to use
> than the textbox.
>
> I'm also using typomatic code from the web (Aaron Young) to enhance
> usability. (This code requires Style = 2 - Dropdown List)
>
> What do others think about replacing textboxes with comboboxes like
> this?

It depends entirely in the context and use.
If you have a fixed list of itmes (IMO < ~25) then use a combobox.
If you want freeform text, a textbox
If you want a number, a numberbox (textbox with an updown control).

You use what is suitable for the data.

-- 
Dee Earley (dee.earley@icode.co.uk)
i-Catcher Development Team

iCode Systems

On Feb 22, 9:14=A0am, MM <kylix...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> I my VB6 Know The Notes app, which I am currently enhancing with extra
> features, I have been using dropdown comboboxes on one or two forms.
> Because when one has the alternative, textboxes, one has to do loads
> of checking, like is it numeric only, what happens in
> LostFocus/GotFocus, what happens when you select a menu (no LostFocus
> triggered), range checks etc. The combobox does away with all those
> since its list contains only valid values, so it is just not possible
> for the user to select an invalid value.
>
> Obviously, there will be plenty of cases where you may need to enter a
> large value and it won't be possible to have a very large number of
> possible values preloaded in the combobox, but for data like MIDI
> data, where many numbers (e.g. Note Number, Velocity) are in the range
> 0 to 127, it seems as if the combobox is a much better control to use
> than the textbox.
>
> I'm also using typomatic code from the web (Aaron Young) to enhance
> usability. (This code requires Style =3D 2 - Dropdown List)
>
> What do others think about replacing textboxes with comboboxes like
> this?
>
> MM

I agree ComboBoxes are great for those things where the choice is
clear cut but at the same time it is easy to fall into the trap of
creating very lengthy comboboxes that take longer to search and select
then it would to provide a TextBox.

The best of 2 worlds in my opinion is to have text completion on a
combobox similar to what you get when you are using "Google" search on
Firefox, Excel, etc.

On Mon, 22 Feb 2010 09:21:04 -0800 (PST), duke <nospama@3web.net>
wrote:

>On Feb 22, 9:14�am, MM <kylix...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>> I my VB6 Know The Notes app, which I am currently enhancing with extra
>> features, I have been using dropdown comboboxes on one or two forms.
>> Because when one has the alternative, textboxes, one has to do loads
>> of checking, like is it numeric only, what happens in
>> LostFocus/GotFocus, what happens when you select a menu (no LostFocus
>> triggered), range checks etc. The combobox does away with all those
>> since its list contains only valid values, so it is just not possible
>> for the user to select an invalid value.
>>
>> Obviously, there will be plenty of cases where you may need to enter a
>> large value and it won't be possible to have a very large number of
>> possible values preloaded in the combobox, but for data like MIDI
>> data, where many numbers (e.g. Note Number, Velocity) are in the range
>> 0 to 127, it seems as if the combobox is a much better control to use
>> than the textbox.
>>
>> I'm also using typomatic code from the web (Aaron Young) to enhance
>> usability. (This code requires Style = 2 - Dropdown List)
>>
>> What do others think about replacing textboxes with comboboxes like
>> this?
>>
>> MM
>
>I agree ComboBoxes are great for those things where the choice is
>clear cut but at the same time it is easy to fall into the trap of
>creating very lengthy comboboxes that take longer to search and select
>then it would to provide a TextBox.

Well, it depends, I suppose, on what one means with "very lengthy".
One of my data fields has the value range 0 through 3000 and the typed
in value (in the combobox with typomatic) is found in the list
instantaneously. That typomatic code I mentioned uses SendMessage with
CB_FINDSTRING so it's very fast. I wouldn't use this appoach for
ranges greater than, say, 0 - 10,000, but I'd see first whether it was
usable even then. After all, you have to type the WHOLE value into a
textbox, but only part of it in the case of a combobox with typomatic
operative.

>The best of 2 worlds in my opinion is to have text completion on a
>combobox similar to what you get when you are using "Google" search on
>Firefox, Excel, etc.

Using the typomatic code I found (with a minor mod from me) it works
just like that. Even the CB with the large-ish range 0 to 3000 is
snappily instantaneous.

MM

On Mon, 22 Feb 2010 17:14:26 +0000, Dee Earley
<dee.earley@icode.co.uk> wrote:

>On 22/02/2010 16:14, MM wrote:
>> I my VB6 Know The Notes app, which I am currently enhancing with extra
>> features, I have been using dropdown comboboxes on one or two forms.
>> Because when one has the alternative, textboxes, one has to do loads
>> of checking, like is it numeric only, what happens in
>> LostFocus/GotFocus, what happens when you select a menu (no LostFocus
>> triggered), range checks etc. The combobox does away with all those
>> since its list contains only valid values, so it is just not possible
>> for the user to select an invalid value.
>>
>> Obviously, there will be plenty of cases where you may need to enter a
>> large value and it won't be possible to have a very large number of
>> possible values preloaded in the combobox, but for data like MIDI
>> data, where many numbers (e.g. Note Number, Velocity) are in the range
>> 0 to 127, it seems as if the combobox is a much better control to use
>> than the textbox.
>>
>> I'm also using typomatic code from the web (Aaron Young) to enhance
>> usability. (This code requires Style = 2 - Dropdown List)
>>
>> What do others think about replacing textboxes with comboboxes like
>> this?
>
>It depends entirely in the context and use.
>If you have a fixed list of itmes (IMO < ~25) then use a combobox.

What is wrong with a much larger list than 25? Several of my
comboboxes have lists of 0 to 127 and one has 0 to 3000. In all cases
the number typed (which one would have to type out in full in the case
of a textbox) is located instantly in the combobox using the typomatic
code I mentioned.

>If you want freeform text, a textbox
>If you want a number, a numberbox (textbox with an updown control).

The UpDown control requires MSCOMCT2.OCX, which may or may not be
included as standard on all op systems. Also, it doesn't stop me from
typing an invalid value into the associated textbox (unless I provide
additional checking code, which I avoid with my combobox
implementation). Thirdly, I dislike it intensely, with its miniscule
arrows!

MM

MM wrote:
>> It depends entirely in the context and use.
>> If you have a fixed list of itmes (IMO < ~25) then use a combobox.
>
> What is wrong with a much larger list than 25? Several of my
> comboboxes have lists of 0 to 127 and one has 0 to 3000. In all cases
> the number typed (which one would have to type out in full in the case
> of a textbox) is located instantly in the combobox using the typomatic
> code I mentioned.

You know about the typomatic (I like that spelling), and I know about 
it, but do your users?  I'd guess most don't.  Ever watched someone "go 
to" a website by typing its name into the google search bar, then 
clicking on the first link to come up?

>> If you want freeform text, a textbox
>> If you want a number, a numberbox (textbox with an updown control).
>
> The UpDown control requires MSCOMCT2.OCX, which may or may not be
> included as standard on all op systems.

No, you don't.  http://vb.mvps.org/samples/UpDown

> Also, it doesn't stop me from
> typing an invalid value into the associated textbox (unless I provide
> additional checking code, which I avoid with my combobox
> implementation).

Not necessarily.  http://vb.mvps.org/samples/UpDown

> Thirdly, I dislike it intensely, with its miniscule arrows!

Admitting it's a personal problem is at least honest.  ;-)

-- 
..NET: It's About Trust!
http://vfred.mvps.org

On Mon, 22 Feb 2010 10:53:11 -0800, Karl E. Peterson <karl@exmvps.org>
wrote:

>MM wrote:
>>> It depends entirely in the context and use.
>>> If you have a fixed list of itmes (IMO < ~25) then use a combobox.
>>
>> What is wrong with a much larger list than 25? Several of my
>> comboboxes have lists of 0 to 127 and one has 0 to 3000. In all cases
>> the number typed (which one would have to type out in full in the case
>> of a textbox) is located instantly in the combobox using the typomatic
>> code I mentioned.
>
>You know about the typomatic (I like that spelling), and I know about 
>it, but do your users?  I'd guess most don't.

What's to know? They see a field, they tab to it, or it already has
the focus, or they click on it, or they use the shortcut in the
associated label, then they start typing OR they use it as a combobox.
It would be a lot harder teaching people how to touch their toes.

>  Ever watched someone "go 
>to" a website by typing its name into the google search bar, then 
>clicking on the first link to come up?

Nope.

>>> If you want freeform text, a textbox
>>> If you want a number, a numberbox (textbox with an updown control).
>>
>> The UpDown control requires MSCOMCT2.OCX, which may or may not be
>> included as standard on all op systems.
>
>No, you don't.  http://vb.mvps.org/samples/UpDown

Don't what? The help file states:
"To use the UpDown control in your application, you must add the
MSCOMCT2.OCX  file to the project. When distributing your application,
install the MSCOMCT2.OCX  file in the user's Microsoft Windows SYSTEM
directory."

I want this app to work with minimal extra controls, which is why I
also go for user controls that can be incorporated into the exe
wherever possible. And the combobox is one of the basic controls,
n'est-ce pas?

>> Also, it doesn't stop me from
>> typing an invalid value into the associated textbox (unless I provide
>> additional checking code, which I avoid with my combobox
>> implementation).
>
>Not necessarily.  http://vb.mvps.org/samples/UpDown

Do you or do you not need additional code to check input?

>
>> Thirdly, I dislike it intensely, with its miniscule arrows!
>
>Admitting it's a personal problem is at least honest.  ;-)

No, a personal problem would be excessive body odour or failure to get
wood. Simply disliking a particular control ain't a personal problem,
unless you've got issues.

MM

MM wrote:
> Karl E. Peterson <karl@exmvps.org> wrote:
>> MM wrote:
>>>> It depends entirely in the context and use.
>>>> If you have a fixed list of itmes (IMO < ~25) then use a combobox.
>>> 
>>> What is wrong with a much larger list than 25? Several of my
>>> comboboxes have lists of 0 to 127 and one has 0 to 3000. In all cases
>>> the number typed (which one would have to type out in full in the case
>>> of a textbox) is located instantly in the combobox using the typomatic
>>> code I mentioned.
>>
>> You know about the typomatic (I like that spelling), and I know about 
>> it, but do your users?  I'd guess most don't.
>
> What's to know? They see a field, they tab to it, or it already has
> the focus, or they click on it, or they use the shortcut in the
> associated label, then they start typing OR they use it as a combobox.
> It would be a lot harder teaching people how to touch their toes.

There you go again, thinking like a programmer. <g>  Most folks I watch 
don't even know they can tab between fields yet!  Watch someone login 
sometime.  They'll type their username, reach for the mouse, click on 
the password field, type their password, reach for the mouse, click the 
OK button.  WTF?  (Note, I'm not disagreeing with you!)

>>  Ever watched someone "go 
>> to" a website by typing its name into the google search bar, then 
>> clicking on the first link to come up?
>
> Nope.

You don't get out much, do you? <g>

>>>> If you want freeform text, a textbox
>>>> If you want a number, a numberbox (textbox with an updown control).
>>> 
>>> The UpDown control requires MSCOMCT2.OCX, which may or may not be
>>> included as standard on all op systems.
>> 
>> No, you don't.  http://vb.mvps.org/samples/UpDown
>
> Don't what?

You don't need that OCX.

> The help file states:
> "To use the UpDown control in your application, you must add the
> MSCOMCT2.OCX  file to the project. When distributing your application,
> install the MSCOMCT2.OCX  file in the user's Microsoft Windows SYSTEM
> directory."

Note, that's the helpfile for the *OCX*.  I handed you code that 
eliminates that external dependency.

> I want this app to work with minimal extra controls, which is why I
> also go for user controls that can be incorporated into the exe
> wherever possible. And the combobox is one of the basic controls,
> n'est-ce pas?

I'm just saying, you *can* use UpDown controls with nothing more than 
drop-in class module.  (Oh, that's right, you don't *do* class modules, 
do you? <bg>)

>>> Also, it doesn't stop me from
>>> typing an invalid value into the associated textbox (unless I provide
>>> additional checking code, which I avoid with my combobox
>>> implementation).
>> 
>> Not necessarily.  http://vb.mvps.org/samples/UpDown
>
> Do you or do you not need additional code to check input?

It's all there.

>>> Thirdly, I dislike it intensely, with its miniscule arrows!
>> 
>> Admitting it's a personal problem is at least honest.  ;-)
>
> No, a personal problem would be excessive body odour or failure to get
> wood. Simply disliking a particular control ain't a personal problem,
> unless you've got issues.

Sure.

-- 
..NET: It's About Trust!
http://vfred.mvps.org

On Mon, 22 Feb 2010 14:28:09 -0800, Karl E. Peterson <karl@exmvps.org>
wrote:

>MM wrote:
>> Karl E. Peterson <karl@exmvps.org> wrote:
>>> MM wrote:
>>>>> It depends entirely in the context and use.
>>>>> If you have a fixed list of itmes (IMO < ~25) then use a combobox.
>>>> 
>>>> What is wrong with a much larger list than 25? Several of my
>>>> comboboxes have lists of 0 to 127 and one has 0 to 3000. In all cases
>>>> the number typed (which one would have to type out in full in the case
>>>> of a textbox) is located instantly in the combobox using the typomatic
>>>> code I mentioned.
>>>
>>> You know about the typomatic (I like that spelling), and I know about 
>>> it, but do your users?  I'd guess most don't.
>>
>> What's to know? They see a field, they tab to it, or it already has
>> the focus, or they click on it, or they use the shortcut in the
>> associated label, then they start typing OR they use it as a combobox.
>> It would be a lot harder teaching people how to touch their toes.
>
>There you go again, thinking like a programmer. <g>  Most folks I watch 
>don't even know they can tab between fields yet!

They don't DESERVE to use my software!

>  Watch someone login 
>sometime.  They'll type their username, reach for the mouse, click on 
>the password field, type their password, reach for the mouse, click the 
>OK button.  WTF?  (Note, I'm not disagreeing with you!)
>
>>>  Ever watched someone "go 
>>> to" a website by typing its name into the google search bar, then 
>>> clicking on the first link to come up?
>>
>> Nope.
>
>You don't get out much, do you? <g>

In this weather? Longest cold period for about a thousand years,
apparently.

>>>>> If you want freeform text, a textbox
>>>>> If you want a number, a numberbox (textbox with an updown control).
>>>> 
>>>> The UpDown control requires MSCOMCT2.OCX, which may or may not be
>>>> included as standard on all op systems.
>>> 
>>> No, you don't.  http://vb.mvps.org/samples/UpDown
>>
>> Don't what?
>
>You don't need that OCX.
>
>> The help file states:
>> "To use the UpDown control in your application, you must add the
>> MSCOMCT2.OCX  file to the project. When distributing your application,
>> install the MSCOMCT2.OCX  file in the user's Microsoft Windows SYSTEM
>> directory."
>
>Note, that's the helpfile for the *OCX*.  I handed you code that 
>eliminates that external dependency.

Well, to be honest, since I know you like honesty, I didn't look at
it, since there's no way I'd ever use those horrid little arrows
anyway!

>> I want this app to work with minimal extra controls, which is why I
>> also go for user controls that can be incorporated into the exe
>> wherever possible. And the combobox is one of the basic controls,
>> n'est-ce pas?
>
>I'm just saying, you *can* use UpDown controls with nothing more than 
>drop-in class module.  (Oh, that's right, you don't *do* class modules, 
>do you? <bg>)

I do! I do! As long as I don't have to write the buggers. (Mind you, I
have done a fair bit of cleaning up other programmers' code...)

>>>> Also, it doesn't stop me from
>>>> typing an invalid value into the associated textbox (unless I provide
>>>> additional checking code, which I avoid with my combobox
>>>> implementation).
>>> 
>>> Not necessarily.  http://vb.mvps.org/samples/UpDown
>>
>> Do you or do you not need additional code to check input?
>
>It's all there.
>
>>>> Thirdly, I dislike it intensely, with its miniscule arrows!
>>> 
>>> Admitting it's a personal problem is at least honest.  ;-)
>>
>> No, a personal problem would be excessive body odour or failure to get
>> wood. Simply disliking a particular control ain't a personal problem,
>> unless you've got issues.
>
>Sure.

MM

On 22/02/2010 18:07, MM wrote:
> On Mon, 22 Feb 2010 17:14:26 +0000, Dee Earley
> <dee.earley@icode.co.uk>  wrote:
>> On 22/02/2010 16:14, MM wrote:
>>> What do others think about replacing textboxes with comboboxes like
>>> this?
>>
>> It depends entirely in the context and use.
>> If you have a fixed list of itmes (IMO<  ~25) then use a combobox.
>
> What is wrong with a much larger list than 25?

Practicality (Did I say it was IMO?)
Anything more, maybe a tree, or a combination of text and a dropdown 
with auto complete.

-- 
Dee Earley (dee.earley@icode.co.uk)
i-Catcher Development Team

iCode Systems

On Tue, 23 Feb 2010 09:43:21 +0000, Dee Earley
<dee.earley@icode.co.uk> wrote:

>
>On 22/02/2010 18:07, MM wrote:
>> On Mon, 22 Feb 2010 17:14:26 +0000, Dee Earley
>> <dee.earley@icode.co.uk>  wrote:
>>> On 22/02/2010 16:14, MM wrote:
>>>> What do others think about replacing textboxes with comboboxes like
>>>> this?
>>>
>>> It depends entirely in the context and use.
>>> If you have a fixed list of itmes (IMO<  ~25) then use a combobox.
>>
>> What is wrong with a much larger list than 25?
>
>Practicality (Did I say it was IMO?)
>Anything more, maybe a tree, or a combination of text and a dropdown 
>with auto complete.

But there is NO difference in responsiveness whether the dropdown list
contains 25, 250, or 2500 items. Over 25,000 and I'd say you might
have a point, but I have done extensive testing and there is no
degradation in performance.

MM

On 23/02/2010 13:55, MM wrote:
> On Tue, 23 Feb 2010 09:43:21 +0000, Dee Earley
> <dee.earley@icode.co.uk>  wrote:
>
>>
>> On 22/02/2010 18:07, MM wrote:
>>> On Mon, 22 Feb 2010 17:14:26 +0000, Dee Earley
>>> <dee.earley@icode.co.uk>   wrote:
>>>> On 22/02/2010 16:14, MM wrote:
>>>>> What do others think about replacing textboxes with comboboxes like
>>>>> this?
>>>>
>>>> It depends entirely in the context and use.
>>>> If you have a fixed list of itmes (IMO<   ~25) then use a combobox.
>>>
>>> What is wrong with a much larger list than 25?
>>
>> Practicality (Did I say it was IMO?)
>> Anything more, maybe a tree, or a combination of text and a dropdown
>> with auto complete.
>
> But there is NO difference in responsiveness whether the dropdown list
> contains 25, 250, or 2500 items. Over 25,000 and I'd say you might
> have a point, but I have done extensive testing and there is no
> degradation in performance.

I didn't say anything about performance :)
Just the users perception.
If I see a list with thousands of scrollbars, I'll think the developer 
just doesn't have a clue about UI design.

-- 
Dee Earley (dee.earley@icode.co.uk)
i-Catcher Development Team

iCode Systems

On 23/02/2010 14:11, Dee Earley wrote:
> On 23/02/2010 13:55, MM wrote:
>> On Tue, 23 Feb 2010 09:43:21 +0000, Dee Earley
>> <dee.earley@icode.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> On 22/02/2010 18:07, MM wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 22 Feb 2010 17:14:26 +0000, Dee Earley
>>>>> If you have a fixed list of itmes (IMO< ~25) then use a combobox.
>>>>
>>>> What is wrong with a much larger list than 25?
>>>
>>> Practicality (Did I say it was IMO?)
>>
>> But there is NO difference in responsiveness whether the dropdown list
>> contains 25, 250, or 2500 items. Over 25,000 and I'd say you might
>> have a point, but I have done extensive testing and there is no
>> degradation in performance.
>
> I didn't say anything about performance :)
> Just the users perception.
> If I see a list with thousands of scrollbars, I'll think the developer
> just doesn't have a clue about UI design.

Thousands of scrollbars?
Of course I meant thousands of items (using an extreme) with a tiny 
scrollbar.. :)

-- 
Dee Earley (dee.earley@icode.co.uk)
i-Catcher Development Team

iCode Systems

On Tue, 23 Feb 2010 14:11:30 +0000, Dee Earley
<dee.earley@icode.co.uk> wrote:

>I didn't say anything about performance :)
>Just the users perception.
>If I see a list with thousands of scrollbars, I'll think the developer 
>just doesn't have a clue about UI design.

"thousands of scrollbars" ? Each combobox has one scrollbar. The box
doesn't even drop down unless you want it to. Otherwise it behaves and
looks exactly like a text field.

MM

On Tue, 23 Feb 2010 14:14:15 +0000, Dee Earley
<dee.earley@icode.co.uk> wrote:

>On 23/02/2010 14:11, Dee Earley wrote:
>> On 23/02/2010 13:55, MM wrote:
>>> On Tue, 23 Feb 2010 09:43:21 +0000, Dee Earley
>>> <dee.earley@icode.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 22/02/2010 18:07, MM wrote:
>>>>> On Mon, 22 Feb 2010 17:14:26 +0000, Dee Earley
>>>>>> If you have a fixed list of itmes (IMO< ~25) then use a combobox.
>>>>>
>>>>> What is wrong with a much larger list than 25?
>>>>
>>>> Practicality (Did I say it was IMO?)
>>>
>>> But there is NO difference in responsiveness whether the dropdown list
>>> contains 25, 250, or 2500 items. Over 25,000 and I'd say you might
>>> have a point, but I have done extensive testing and there is no
>>> degradation in performance.
>>
>> I didn't say anything about performance :)
>> Just the users perception.
>> If I see a list with thousands of scrollbars, I'll think the developer
>> just doesn't have a clue about UI design.
>
>Thousands of scrollbars?
>Of course I meant thousands of items (using an extreme) with a tiny 
>scrollbar.. :)

Okay, but my last point still holds. I think maybe you're thinking
that the user has to drop down the list every time and click on the
value required, but this is not how it works with typomatic. With
typomatic you type into the textbox portion exactly as if it were a
real textbox. There are added benefits: you can hit End or Home and
immediately jump to the highest or lowest permissible value.

MM

"MM" <kylix_is@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message 
news:ol17o55g0vthrarcvtpjcn2rt7u7sknrbd@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 22 Feb 2010 14:28:09 -0800, Karl E. Peterson <karl@exmvps.org>
> wrote:
>
>>MM wrote:
>>> Karl E. Peterson <karl@exmvps.org> wrote:
>>>> MM wrote:
>>>>>> It depends entirely in the context and use.
>>>>>> If you have a fixed list of itmes (IMO < ~25) then use a combobox.
>>>>>
>>>>> What is wrong with a much larger list than 25? Several of my
>>>>> comboboxes have lists of 0 to 127 and one has 0 to 3000. In all cases
>>>>> the number typed (which one would have to type out in full in the case
>>>>> of a textbox) is located instantly in the combobox using the typomatic
>>>>> code I mentioned.
>>>>
>>>> You know about the typomatic (I like that spelling), and I know about
>>>> it, but do your users?  I'd guess most don't.
>>>
>>> What's to know? They see a field, they tab to it, or it already has
>>> the focus, or they click on it, or they use the shortcut in the
>>> associated label, then they start typing OR they use it as a combobox.
>>> It would be a lot harder teaching people how to touch their toes.
>>
>>There you go again, thinking like a programmer. <g>  Most folks I watch
>>don't even know they can tab between fields yet!
>
> They don't DESERVE to use my software!

I can't imagine someone making that statement about artists and singers, 
perhaps with the exception of egotistical OOP developers.

MM wrote:
>>>>>> If you want freeform text, a textbox
>>>>>> If you want a number, a numberbox (textbox with an updown control).
>>>>> 
>>>>> The UpDown control requires MSCOMCT2.OCX, which may or may not be
>>>>> included as standard on all op systems.
>>>> 
>>>> No, you don't.  http://vb.mvps.org/samples/UpDown
>>> 
>>> Don't what?
>> 
>> You don't need that OCX.
>> 
>>> The help file states:
>>> "To use the UpDown control in your application, you must add the
>>> MSCOMCT2.OCX  file to the project. When distributing your application,
>>> install the MSCOMCT2.OCX  file in the user's Microsoft Windows SYSTEM
>>> directory."
>> 
>> Note, that's the helpfile for the *OCX*.  I handed you code that 
>> eliminates that external dependency.
>
> Well, to be honest, since I know you like honesty, I didn't look at
> it, since there's no way I'd ever use those horrid little arrows
> anyway!

You know they work with the arrow keys as well, right?  ;-)

>>> I want this app to work with minimal extra controls, which is why I
>>> also go for user controls that can be incorporated into the exe
>>> wherever possible. And the combobox is one of the basic controls,
>>> n'est-ce pas?
>> 
>> I'm just saying, you *can* use UpDown controls with nothing more than 
>> drop-in class module.  (Oh, that's right, you don't *do* class modules, 
>> do you? <bg>)
>
> I do! I do! As long as I don't have to write the buggers. (Mind you, I
> have done a fair bit of cleaning up other programmers' code...)

Well, should you get bored with the jigsaw puzzles, you might want to 
try the sample download.  :-)

-- 
..NET: It's About Trust!
http://vfred.mvps.org

> Okay, but my last point still holds. I think maybe you're thinking
> that the user has to drop down the list every time and click on the
> value required, but this is not how it works with typomatic. With
> typomatic you type into the textbox portion exactly as if it were a
> real textbox. There are added benefits: you can hit End or Home and
> immediately jump to the highest or lowest permissible value.

I know that, but not all lists have a rigid naming structure for the 
items in it and I still think presenting a single long list is a bad idea.

My app has a wizard which requires the user to select the model of camera.
The current list stands at.. 264, and this would be impractical as one 
big list.
It is filtered first by manufacturer which reduces the largest sub 
selection to 40, and even that has "groups" of items to make it easier 
to find a given item.

I admit it will be easier if the items are sorted, but it still becomes 
unmanageable very quickly if the user doesn't know to type and tries to 
scroll (required for freeform values)

-- 
Dee Earley (dee.earley@icode.co.uk)
i-Catcher Development Team

iCode Systems

"MM" <kylix_is@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message 
news:ol17o55g0vthrarcvtpjcn2rt7u7sknrbd@4ax.com...
>
> They don't DESERVE to use my software!

Were you being facetious, or are you actually serious with that statement? 
I've known programmers with attitude, but I've never known any of them to 
claim users don't "deserve" to use their software. Talk about arrogant (if 
you WERE serious).

-- 
Mike
 

On Tue, 23 Feb 2010 09:21:51 -0800, Karl E. Peterson <karl@exmvps.org>
wrote:

>MM wrote:
>>>>>>> If you want freeform text, a textbox
>>>>>>> If you want a number, a numberbox (textbox with an updown control).
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> The UpDown control requires MSCOMCT2.OCX, which may or may not be
>>>>>> included as standard on all op systems.
>>>>> 
>>>>> No, you don't.  http://vb.mvps.org/samples/UpDown
>>>> 
>>>> Don't what?
>>> 
>>> You don't need that OCX.
>>> 
>>>> The help file states:
>>>> "To use the UpDown control in your application, you must add the
>>>> MSCOMCT2.OCX  file to the project. When distributing your application,
>>>> install the MSCOMCT2.OCX  file in the user's Microsoft Windows SYSTEM
>>>> directory."
>>> 
>>> Note, that's the helpfile for the *OCX*.  I handed you code that 
>>> eliminates that external dependency.
>>
>> Well, to be honest, since I know you like honesty, I didn't look at
>> it, since there's no way I'd ever use those horrid little arrows
>> anyway!
>
>You know they work with the arrow keys as well, right?  ;-)

NumLock?

>>>> I want this app to work with minimal extra controls, which is why I
>>>> also go for user controls that can be incorporated into the exe
>>>> wherever possible. And the combobox is one of the basic controls,
>>>> n'est-ce pas?
>>> 
>>> I'm just saying, you *can* use UpDown controls with nothing more than 
>>> drop-in class module.  (Oh, that's right, you don't *do* class modules, 
>>> do you? <bg>)
>>
>> I do! I do! As long as I don't have to write the buggers. (Mind you, I
>> have done a fair bit of cleaning up other programmers' code...)
>
>Well, should you get bored with the jigsaw puzzles, you might want to 
>try the sample download.  :-)

I'll bet y'all are now secretly trying my typomatic idea! (Innovators
always have a hard time of it to begin with.... ;)

MM

On Tue, 23 Feb 2010 13:59:34 -0500, "MikeD" <nobody@nowhere.edu>
wrote:

>
>
>"MM" <kylix_is@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message 
>news:ol17o55g0vthrarcvtpjcn2rt7u7sknrbd@4ax.com...
>>
>> They don't DESERVE to use my software!
>
>Were you being facetious, or are you actually serious with that statement? 
>I've known programmers with attitude, but I've never known any of them to 
>claim users don't "deserve" to use their software. Talk about arrogant (if 
>you WERE serious).

Oh, dear. You need signposts?

MM

On Tue, 23 Feb 2010 17:25:59 +0000, Dee Earley
<dee.earley@icode.co.uk> wrote:

>> Okay, but my last point still holds. I think maybe you're thinking
>> that the user has to drop down the list every time and click on the
>> value required, but this is not how it works with typomatic. With
>> typomatic you type into the textbox portion exactly as if it were a
>> real textbox. There are added benefits: you can hit End or Home and
>> immediately jump to the highest or lowest permissible value.
>
>I know that, but not all lists have a rigid naming structure for the 
>items in it and I still think presenting a single long list is a bad idea.

But why? In any case, the user doesn't see a "long list". (S)he sees a
textbox with an arrow alongside. It sure won't take the user long to
figure out what to do and what (s)he won't know is just how bomb-proof
the routine is without any extra checking code that might be buggy.

>My app has a wizard which requires the user to select the model of camera.
>The current list stands at.. 264, and this would be impractical as one 
>big list.
>It is filtered first by manufacturer which reduces the largest sub 
>selection to 40, and even that has "groups" of items to make it easier 
>to find a given item.

That is not what I am doing, though. As I said, I have a list of
values 0 - 127 or 0 - 3000.

>I admit it will be easier if the items are sorted, but it still becomes 
>unmanageable very quickly if the user doesn't know to type and tries to 
>scroll (required for freeform values)

"doesn't know how to type" - how did they manage to boot the PC and
sign on?

MM

"MM" <kylix_is@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message 
news:5gf8o5hluv3fgb020ghinkontto2m7ld25@4ax.com...

>>I admit it will be easier if the items are sorted, but it still becomes
>>unmanageable very quickly if the user doesn't know to type and tries to
>>scroll (required for freeform values)
>
> "doesn't know how to type" - how did they manage to boot the PC and
> sign on?

Not "doesn't know HOW to type," but rather "doesn't know TO type," i.e., 
"doesn't know he MAY type." Many people think the mouse is REQUIRED to use 
certain controls, sadly. 

On Tue, 23 Feb 2010 16:39:32 -0500, "Jeff Johnson" <i.get@enough.spam>
wrote:

>"MM" <kylix_is@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message 
>news:5gf8o5hluv3fgb020ghinkontto2m7ld25@4ax.com...
>
>>>I admit it will be easier if the items are sorted, but it still becomes
>>>unmanageable very quickly if the user doesn't know to type and tries to
>>>scroll (required for freeform values)
>>
>> "doesn't know how to type" - how did they manage to boot the PC and
>> sign on?
>
>Not "doesn't know HOW to type," but rather "doesn't know TO type," i.e., 
>"doesn't know he MAY type." Many people think the mouse is REQUIRED to use 
>certain controls, sadly. 

"doesn't know TO type" - how does the user become a PC user, then? Or
do you envisage many thousands of PCs across the world sitting there
idling away while users sit in front of them, going: "Goodness me, I
really don't know what to do next!"

MM

On Tue, 23 Feb 2010 17:31:23 -0600, DanS
<t.h.i.s.n.t.h.a.t@r.o.a.d.r.u.n.n.e.r.c.o.m> wrote:

>>>> I didn't say anything about performance :)
>>>> Just the users perception.
>>>> If I see a list with thousands of scrollbars, I'll think the 
>developer
>>>> just doesn't have a clue about UI design.
>>>
>>>Thousands of scrollbars?
>>>Of course I meant thousands of items (using an extreme) with a tiny 
>>>scrollbar.. :)
>> 
>> Okay, but my last point still holds. I think maybe you're thinking
>> that the user has to drop down the list every time and click on the
>> value required, but this is not how it works with typomatic. With
>> typomatic you type into the textbox portion exactly as if it were a
>> real textbox. There are added benefits: you can hit End or Home and
>> immediately jump to the highest or lowest permissible value.
>
>The problem I always have with a big dropdown box is what if I don't know 
>what I'm looking for ?

If you don't know, how could you type it into to a textbox instead?

>Even if I know I can enter text and it will autocomplete, I may have no 
>idea what's in there.

Er, the range is clearly explained: 0 to 127, for example. It could
hardly be more obvious. Mind you, I expect there are SOME people who,
confronted with such an input requirement in software, would be typing
things like: "Must buy some milk today" and then puzzling why the
program keeps warning them.

>Have you ever tried to set the timezone on a Linux box ?

No.

>Here's the latest drop-down list for that:

[snipped]

That is your example? Did it not occur to you that that list is poorly
designed?

MM

"MM" <kylix_is@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message 
news:9af8o55p11vim37jegvipr8b180hn0aus1@4ax.com...

> I'll bet y'all are now secretly trying my typomatic idea! (Innovators
> always have a hard time of it to begin with.... ;)
>
You arrogant twit, there has been variations of auto-complete (the correct 
term) on combo boxes for pretty much as long as conbo boxes have existed.
An Innovator is not the same as a plagiarist. There's no issue with using 
old ideas but don't pretend you invented it (unless you work for Apple where 
such behaviour seems to be mandatory)

Dave O. 

 
>>> Okay, but my last point still holds. I think maybe you're thinking
>>> that the user has to drop down the list every time and click on the
>>> value required, but this is not how it works with typomatic. With
>>> typomatic you type into the textbox portion exactly as if it were a
>>> real textbox. There are added benefits: you can hit End or Home and
>>> immediately jump to the highest or lowest permissible value.
>>
>>The problem I always have with a big dropdown box is what if I don't
>>know what I'm looking for ?
> 
> If you don't know, how could you type it into to a textbox instead?

That isn't the point, the point was very long drop-down boxes, not 
extering text. Scrolling through 1000+ entries of which I'm not sure what 
I need is a problem.

> 
>>Even if I know I can enter text and it will autocomplete, I may have
>>no idea what's in there.
> 
> Er, the range is clearly explained: 0 to 127, for example. It could
> hardly be more obvious. Mind you, I expect there are SOME people who,
> confronted with such an input requirement in software, would be typing
> things like: "Must buy some milk today" and then puzzling why the
> program keeps warning them.
> 
>>Have you ever tried to set the timezone on a Linux box ?
> 
> No.
> 
>>Here's the latest drop-down list for that:
> 
> [snipped]
> 
> That is your example? Did it not occur to you that that list is poorly
> designed?

My example ? Yes. That is one example.

Poorly designed ? That's not up to me to decide. That is the official 
list of accepted timezone names according to whatever body that controls 
them.... http://www.twinsun.com/tz/tz-link.htm

And....what the time zone selection combo box looks like in every Linux 
distro.

On Wed, 24 Feb 2010 11:41:29 -0000, "Dave O." <nobody@nowhere.com>
wrote:

>
>"MM" <kylix_is@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message 
>news:9af8o55p11vim37jegvipr8b180hn0aus1@4ax.com...
>
>> I'll bet y'all are now secretly trying my typomatic idea! (Innovators
>> always have a hard time of it to begin with.... ;)
>>
>You arrogant twit, there has been variations of auto-complete (the correct 
>term) on combo boxes for pretty much as long as conbo boxes have existed.
>An Innovator is not the same as a plagiarist. There's no issue with using 
>old ideas but don't pretend you invented it (unless you work for Apple where 
>such behaviour seems to be mandatory)

Er, got out of the wrong side of the bed this morning, did you? You
must have missed the smiley as well!

MM

"MM" <kylix_is@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message 
news:qti9o55mkee1r0m1lkt1bk4o3gli2mc42k@4ax.com...

>>>>I admit it will be easier if the items are sorted, but it still becomes
>>>>unmanageable very quickly if the user doesn't know to type and tries to
>>>>scroll (required for freeform values)
>>>
>>> "doesn't know how to type" - how did they manage to boot the PC and
>>> sign on?
>>
>>Not "doesn't know HOW to type," but rather "doesn't know TO type," i.e.,
>>"doesn't know he MAY type." Many people think the mouse is REQUIRED to use
>>certain controls, sadly.
>
> "doesn't know TO type" - how does the user become a PC user, then? Or
> do you envisage many thousands of PCs across the world sitting there
> idling away while users sit in front of them, going: "Goodness me, I
> really don't know what to do next!"

You really won't accept that fact that in the specific case of COMBO BOXES 
(which IS what this is about, not the computer in general), some users don't 
understand that they can use they keyboard and instead think they MUST use 
the mouse? Really?

"MM" <kylix_is@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message 
news:ol17o55g0vthrarcvtpjcn2rt7u7sknrbd@4ax.com...
>>
>>There you go again, thinking like a programmer. <g>  Most folks I watch
>>don't even know they can tab between fields yet!
>
> They don't DESERVE to use my software!
>


I pose no such restriction on those who use my software. They get it if they 
purchase it, even if they don't deserve it or use it efficiently. I'm pretty 
happy with the result. ;-)

-- 
Regards,

Rick Raisley
heavymetal-A-T-bellsouth-D-O-T-net

On Feb 22, 9:14=A0am, MM <kylix...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

> What do others think about replacing textboxes with comboboxes like
> this?

Actually I think using auto-select comboboxes in this case is fine.  I
might use an up/down tool for numbers instead but I do agree about the
tiny arrow buttons on that type of control.  Annoying.

While many criticize the use of auto-select combo's for a large data
list let me refer you to font selection options in programs like Word,
WordPad, Text Tool in MS Paint and dozens of other editors/word
processors.  I have over 250 fonts registered on my computer and all
these programs use auto-select drop downs for font selection.  It is
handy and fast.  If I want to use Tahoma... click in dropdown... type
"Ta" and bam... good to go.  If I'm unsure of the type font I want I
can scroll through the list to sample the fonts.

Auto-select combobox is a good choice for your program, MM.

Tom

On Wed, 24 Feb 2010 09:53:28 -0800 (PST), Shotgun Thom
<tmoran4511@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Feb 22, 9:14�am, MM <kylix...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> What do others think about replacing textboxes with comboboxes like
>> this?
>
>Actually I think using auto-select comboboxes in this case is fine.  I
>might use an up/down tool for numbers instead but I do agree about the
>tiny arrow buttons on that type of control.  Annoying.
>
>While many criticize the use of auto-select combo's for a large data
>list let me refer you to font selection options in programs like Word,
>WordPad, Text Tool in MS Paint and dozens of other editors/word
>processors.  I have over 250 fonts registered on my computer and all
>these programs use auto-select drop downs for font selection.  It is
>handy and fast.  If I want to use Tahoma... click in dropdown... type
>"Ta" and bam... good to go.  If I'm unsure of the type font I want I
>can scroll through the list to sample the fonts.
>
>Auto-select combobox is a good choice for your program, MM.
>
>Tom

You and me both, Tom. Oh, how refreshing to talk to somebody who
understands!

MM

"MM" <kylix_is@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message 
news:4nrao5h2usu7ebur4kv38a14u1th67rkia@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 24 Feb 2010 09:53:28 -0800 (PST), Shotgun Thom
> <tmoran4511@gmail.com> wrote:
<cut>
>>Auto-select combobox is a good choice for your program, MM.
>>
>>Tom
>
> You and me both, Tom. Oh, how refreshing to talk to somebody who
> understands!

You mean who agrees....  many understand.

Auto-select combo is a useful tool but, like anything else, is easy to 
overuse.  I probably wouldn't use it for numeric entry unless the list of 
valid values was very short.

On Wed, 24 Feb 2010 11:02:45 -0800, "Bob Butler" <noway@nospam.ever>
wrote:

>
>"MM" <kylix_is@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message 
>news:4nrao5h2usu7ebur4kv38a14u1th67rkia@4ax.com...
>> On Wed, 24 Feb 2010 09:53:28 -0800 (PST), Shotgun Thom
>> <tmoran4511@gmail.com> wrote:
><cut>
>>>Auto-select combobox is a good choice for your program, MM.
>>>
>>>Tom
>>
>> You and me both, Tom. Oh, how refreshing to talk to somebody who
>> understands!
>
>You mean who agrees....  many understand.

I don't think they do. Unfortunately, while Access provides typomatic
out of the box, classic VB doesn't.

>Auto-select combo is a useful tool but, like anything else, is easy to 
>overuse.  I probably wouldn't use it for numeric entry unless the list of 
>valid values was very short.

My list is 0 to 127 in six instances. 0 to 3000 in one. The latter
works exactly like the former. You have, say, Middle C (MIDI=60) in
one event and you edit it and change it to MIDI=70. So you open the
edit form, having selected which event to want to change, the software
already knows you want to edit specifically the MIDI value and
therefore gives focus to the appropriate combobox, therefore you can
start typing your new value 70 immediately, the combobox doesn't drop
down, the number is confirmed, you press enter, the form's default
being the OK button - job done!

And no extra checking code needed, since you can only type values that
are in the list.

MM

"MM" <kylix_is@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message 
news:kc5co5113nkde6g59tmg366lgdf7r5kvvk@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 24 Feb 2010 11:02:45 -0800, "Bob Butler" <noway@nospam.ever>
> wrote:
>
>>
>>"MM" <kylix_is@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
>>news:4nrao5h2usu7ebur4kv38a14u1th67rkia@4ax.com...
>>> On Wed, 24 Feb 2010 09:53:28 -0800 (PST), Shotgun Thom
>>> <tmoran4511@gmail.com> wrote:
>><cut>
>>>>Auto-select combobox is a good choice for your program, MM.
>>>>
>>>>Tom
>>>
>>> You and me both, Tom. Oh, how refreshing to talk to somebody who
>>> understands!
>>
>>You mean who agrees....  many understand.
>
> I don't think they do. Unfortunately, while Access provides typomatic
> out of the box, classic VB doesn't.

You started off asking for opinions on this approach but it's quite clear 
that you just want confirmation that it's a great approach for a wide range 
of data entry fields.  In my opinion it works but leads to an unusual 
interface that will feel awkward to many users.  In another post you said 
that the number of users who didn't know they could type in a combobox is "a 
vanishingly small number".  Perhaps your experience is skewed by Access 
application use; my experience is that when people see a drop-down they use 
that and do not type directly into the box.

If you, and your users, like the drop-downs everywhere then use them.  I 
think you've found a new-fangled hammer and are seeing lots of nails that 
need pounding.

On Thu, 25 Feb 2010 05:55:17 -0800, "Bob Butler" <noway@nospam.ever>
wrote:

>
>"MM" <kylix_is@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message 
>news:kc5co5113nkde6g59tmg366lgdf7r5kvvk@4ax.com...
>> On Wed, 24 Feb 2010 11:02:45 -0800, "Bob Butler" <noway@nospam.ever>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"MM" <kylix_is@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
>>>news:4nrao5h2usu7ebur4kv38a14u1th67rkia@4ax.com...
>>>> On Wed, 24 Feb 2010 09:53:28 -0800 (PST), Shotgun Thom
>>>> <tmoran4511@gmail.com> wrote:
>>><cut>
>>>>>Auto-select combobox is a good choice for your program, MM.
>>>>>
>>>>>Tom
>>>>
>>>> You and me both, Tom. Oh, how refreshing to talk to somebody who
>>>> understands!
>>>
>>>You mean who agrees....  many understand.
>>
>> I don't think they do. Unfortunately, while Access provides typomatic
>> out of the box, classic VB doesn't.
>
>You started off asking for opinions on this approach but it's quite clear 
>that you just want confirmation that it's a great approach for a wide range 
>of data entry fields.  In my opinion it works but leads to an unusual 
>interface that will feel awkward to many users.  In another post you said 
>that the number of users who didn't know they could type in a combobox is "a 
>vanishingly small number".  Perhaps your experience is skewed by Access 
>application use; my experience is that when people see a drop-down they use 
>that and do not type directly into the box.
>
>If you, and your users, like the drop-downs everywhere then use them.  I 
>think you've found a new-fangled hammer and are seeing lots of nails that 
>need pounding.

I really do not see what you think can possibly feel awkward about
using a combobox. They are found everywhere in software, so it's
hardly new-fangled.

MM

"MM" <kylix_is@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message 
news:h92do5dm5tj56e6sdp56rahckfi213ugo7@4ax.com...
<cut>
>>If you, and your users, like the drop-downs everywhere then use them.  I
>>think you've found a new-fangled hammer and are seeing lots of nails that
>>need pounding.
>
> I really do not see what you think can possibly feel awkward about
> using a combobox. They are found everywhere in software, so it's
> hardly new-fangled.

I know you don't see.  You stopped listening before you made the first post 
asking for opinions on your approach.  If you like it, use it, just don't be 
surprised that not everybody agrees.

Why do I feel like I'm in the Monty Python argument sketch?

On Thu, 25 Feb 2010 07:13:42 -0800, "Bob Butler" <noway@nospam.ever>
wrote:

>
>"MM" <kylix_is@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message 
>news:h92do5dm5tj56e6sdp56rahckfi213ugo7@4ax.com...
><cut>
>>>If you, and your users, like the drop-downs everywhere then use them.  I
>>>think you've found a new-fangled hammer and are seeing lots of nails that
>>>need pounding.
>>
>> I really do not see what you think can possibly feel awkward about
>> using a combobox. They are found everywhere in software, so it's
>> hardly new-fangled.
>
>I know you don't see.  You stopped listening before you made the first post 
>asking for opinions on your approach.  If you like it, use it, just don't be 
>surprised that not everybody agrees.
>
>Why do I feel like I'm in the Monty Python argument sketch?

Dunno. Ministry of Silly Talks?

MM

"MM" <kylix_is@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message 
news:8nsdo5ht4fgttaar9l819gt1rmbf71bhdv@4ax.com...

>>Why do I feel like I'm in the Monty Python argument sketch?
>
> Dunno. Ministry of Silly Talks?

If anyone mentions parrots then I'm off!  I can't abide all this OT stuff 
;-)

Mike