After reading this...

"...Adobe is at an interesting crossroads. In terms of online media, the 
company is on top of the world, with incredibly high adoption rates of the 
Flash standard. But for mobile devices and systems in the living room, the 
company is furiously trying to expand its market, and is doing a pretty good 
job. Flash is finding its way onto Connected TVs. Most smartphones will be 
supporting AIR 2.0 and Flash 10.1 in the next 18 months. Apple, the one 
company seemingly resisting Adobe's siren call, is still supported with 
Creative Suite 5's ability to export a flash file as an iPhone app. As these 
partnerships hit the market, Flash may be the first true three-screen 
development platform for gaming..."

The really really big question being "do something now like learn Flash or 
wait years for Microsoft to catch up as they have with mobile and keep 
learning Silverlight?" Have other .NET developers chosen Flash?

It just makes me so damn nervous I don't even want to try to keep up with 
Blend or Silverlight development knowing it MIGHT BE the long-term choice 
that finally gets around to being supported when I need to move now if I 
want to be involved with the window of opportunity for HDTV developers; IMO 
the next big thing.

What was it like learning Flash and how well does it integrate with ASP.NET 
C# Web Forms development skills?

We have ZERO ability to reach iPhone customers.
We have ZERO ability to reach anybody on the HDTV.
We now have Windows Mobile 7 that everybody else had 2-3 years ago so all 
Microsoft has done is catch up not innovate or leap frog.

Oh woe is me. 

"Hillbilly" <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote in message 
news:uStItkasKHA.3656@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...
> After reading this...
>
> "...Adobe is at an interesting crossroads. In terms of online media, the 
> company is on top of the world, with incredibly high adoption rates of the 
> Flash standard. But for mobile devices and systems in the living room, the 
> company is furiously trying to expand its market, and is doing a pretty 
> good job. Flash is finding its way onto Connected TVs. Most smartphones 
> will be supporting AIR 2.0 and Flash 10.1 in the next 18 months. Apple, 
> the one company seemingly resisting Adobe's siren call, is still supported 
> with Creative Suite 5's ability to export a flash file as an iPhone app. 
> As these partnerships hit the market, Flash may be the first true 
> three-screen development platform for gaming..."
>
> The really really big question being "do something now like learn Flash or 
> wait years for Microsoft to catch up as they have with mobile and keep 
> learning Silverlight?" Have other .NET developers chosen Flash?

So you are comparing a 3 year old technology against a 14 year old 
technology and worried the 3 year old does not have enough adoption to stick 
with it. Flash has a wide base and is now installed by default.

One of the really cool things about Silverlight is it has a great 
programming model. Yes, Flash has Flex, but most people I see who are 
serious about it build the middle tier in java or .NET. If Silverlight can 
gain proper traction, it already has one programming paradigm for middle 
tier and UI. Much better idea.

In many ways, Flash, through Flex, is playing catch up. You don't see it so 
much as the install base for the non-proggie bits is large.

> It just makes me so damn nervous I don't even want to try to keep up with 
> Blend or Silverlight development knowing it MIGHT BE the long-term choice 
> that finally gets around to being supported when I need to move now if I 
> want to be involved with the window of opportunity for HDTV developers; 
> IMO the next big thing.

I think MS, in general, is making you nervous. And there is a history that 
may warrant some of it. Silverlight is controlled by the same basic group as 
the web stuff, so it is not going to be killed any time soon. The question 
of install base? They had a bit of a black eye in the 1.0/2.0 time frame 
with the media bits and lost a major implementer. We are past that point 
now, so I am not afraid.

> What was it like learning Flash and how well does it integrate with 
> ASP.NET C# Web Forms development skills?

It doesn't and it does. Flex Framework needs a backend to work at speeds 
higher than turtle and .NET makes a good back end. I guess you can go with 
any backend it can communicate with and Java would be another sane choice in 
some instances. A quick google search should reveal if there are others. I 
have done some Flex talking to .NET bits personally.

Flash, or more specifically, ActionScript, is a bit like many other 
languages with braces. The method of making different methods is slightly 
different and there is a better "global" story than .NET (although I am not 
convinced that is good. The downside is having to work with the Flex 
designer, which does not have the greatest debug tools in the world (coming 
from VS, they really suck). There are some Flex to .NET projects out there.

-- 
Peace and Grace,
Greg

Twitter: @gbworld
Blog: http://gregorybeamer.spaces.live.com

************************************************
|    Think outside the box!                        |
************************************************ 

Thanks for that tooling insight. I am worried about the fact that Microsoft 
continues to ignore the two fastest changing market opportunities: mobile 
which has all of the demand now and TV which Microsoft is also dragging 
behind.

Let's also consider the trend that indicates and asserts "billions" of 
connected devices of one type or another are emerging on the network.

For example as it pertains to what is clearly demonstrable I do not think 
the Twitters, Facebooks or LinkedIns, MySpaces ad infinitum are being 
developed using .NET. Aa time presses forward quicker and quicker there 
seems to be less and less and less demand for whatever I or another .NET 
colleague could provide because we are not on time and have only 
incrementalist vaporware to offer IN THE HERE AND NOW.

Its the here and the now that is really starting to bug me and matter to me 
in a big way. As you may remember I am no spring chicken and perhaps being 
older like you ;-) I am pressed with a sense of urgency that seems only the 
older and presumably wiser of us can actually watch pass by. Nobody has 
built and nobody does build the next big thing using .NET because Baldmer 
keeps us all 5 years behind and the next big thing happens before we even 
get to take part.

Tooling aside, doesn't this make sense?

"Gregory A. Beamer" <NoSpamMgbworld@comcast.netNoSpamM> wrote in message 
news:52E8FBA2-0438-4EB1-9300-B8023D0EF215@microsoft.com...
>
>
> "Hillbilly" <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote in message 
> news:uStItkasKHA.3656@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...
>> After reading this...
>>
>> "...Adobe is at an interesting crossroads. In terms of online media, the 
>> company is on top of the world, with incredibly high adoption rates of 
>> the Flash standard. But for mobile devices and systems in the living 
>> room, the company is furiously trying to expand its market, and is doing 
>> a pretty good job. Flash is finding its way onto Connected TVs. Most 
>> smartphones will be supporting AIR 2.0 and Flash 10.1 in the next 18 
>> months. Apple, the one company seemingly resisting Adobe's siren call, is 
>> still supported with Creative Suite 5's ability to export a flash file as 
>> an iPhone app. As these partnerships hit the market, Flash may be the 
>> first true three-screen development platform for gaming..."
>>
>> The really really big question being "do something now like learn Flash 
>> or wait years for Microsoft to catch up as they have with mobile and keep 
>> learning Silverlight?" Have other .NET developers chosen Flash?
>
> So you are comparing a 3 year old technology against a 14 year old 
> technology and worried the 3 year old does not have enough adoption to 
> stick with it. Flash has a wide base and is now installed by default.
>
> One of the really cool things about Silverlight is it has a great 
> programming model. Yes, Flash has Flex, but most people I see who are 
> serious about it build the middle tier in java or .NET. If Silverlight can 
> gain proper traction, it already has one programming paradigm for middle 
> tier and UI. Much better idea.
>
> In many ways, Flash, through Flex, is playing catch up. You don't see it 
> so much as the install base for the non-proggie bits is large.
>
>> It just makes me so damn nervous I don't even want to try to keep up with 
>> Blend or Silverlight development knowing it MIGHT BE the long-term choice 
>> that finally gets around to being supported when I need to move now if I 
>> want to be involved with the window of opportunity for HDTV developers; 
>> IMO the next big thing.
>
> I think MS, in general, is making you nervous. And there is a history that 
> may warrant some of it. Silverlight is controlled by the same basic group 
> as the web stuff, so it is not going to be killed any time soon. The 
> question of install base? They had a bit of a black eye in the 1.0/2.0 
> time frame with the media bits and lost a major implementer. We are past 
> that point now, so I am not afraid.
>
>> What was it like learning Flash and how well does it integrate with 
>> ASP.NET C# Web Forms development skills?
>
> It doesn't and it does. Flex Framework needs a backend to work at speeds 
> higher than turtle and .NET makes a good back end. I guess you can go with 
> any backend it can communicate with and Java would be another sane choice 
> in some instances. A quick google search should reveal if there are 
> others. I have done some Flex talking to .NET bits personally.
>
> Flash, or more specifically, ActionScript, is a bit like many other 
> languages with braces. The method of making different methods is slightly 
> different and there is a better "global" story than .NET (although I am 
> not convinced that is good. The downside is having to work with the Flex 
> designer, which does not have the greatest debug tools in the world 
> (coming from VS, they really suck). There are some Flex to .NET projects 
> out there.
>
> -- 
> Peace and Grace,
> Greg
>
> Twitter: @gbworld
> Blog: http://gregorybeamer.spaces.live.com
>
> ************************************************
> |    Think outside the box!                        |
> ************************************************ 

We use flex in a website at my work place (only because the my predocessor 
used it! and to be honest not my choice).  But it uses a middle tier of .net 
and to be honest the more and more I read about Adobe at the moment they are 
a programmers nightmare with the security risks and bugs.

Just my 2pence worth

Simon


"Hillbilly" <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote in message 
news:OKNM5NzsKHA.4816@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...
> Thanks for that tooling insight. I am worried about the fact that 
> Microsoft continues to ignore the two fastest changing market 
> opportunities: mobile which has all of the demand now and TV which 
> Microsoft is also dragging behind.
>
> Let's also consider the trend that indicates and asserts "billions" of 
> connected devices of one type or another are emerging on the network.
>
> For example as it pertains to what is clearly demonstrable I do not think 
> the Twitters, Facebooks or LinkedIns, MySpaces ad infinitum are being 
> developed using .NET. Aa time presses forward quicker and quicker there 
> seems to be less and less and less demand for whatever I or another .NET 
> colleague could provide because we are not on time and have only 
> incrementalist vaporware to offer IN THE HERE AND NOW.
>
> Its the here and the now that is really starting to bug me and matter to 
> me in a big way. As you may remember I am no spring chicken and perhaps 
> being older like you ;-) I am pressed with a sense of urgency that seems 
> only the older and presumably wiser of us can actually watch pass by. 
> Nobody has built and nobody does build the next big thing using .NET 
> because Baldmer keeps us all 5 years behind and the next big thing happens 
> before we even get to take part.
>
> Tooling aside, doesn't this make sense?
>
> "Gregory A. Beamer" <NoSpamMgbworld@comcast.netNoSpamM> wrote in message 
> news:52E8FBA2-0438-4EB1-9300-B8023D0EF215@microsoft.com...
>>
>>
>> "Hillbilly" <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote in message 
>> news:uStItkasKHA.3656@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...
>>> After reading this...
>>>
>>> "...Adobe is at an interesting crossroads. In terms of online media, the 
>>> company is on top of the world, with incredibly high adoption rates of 
>>> the Flash standard. But for mobile devices and systems in the living 
>>> room, the company is furiously trying to expand its market, and is doing 
>>> a pretty good job. Flash is finding its way onto Connected TVs. Most 
>>> smartphones will be supporting AIR 2.0 and Flash 10.1 in the next 18 
>>> months. Apple, the one company seemingly resisting Adobe's siren call, 
>>> is still supported with Creative Suite 5's ability to export a flash 
>>> file as an iPhone app. As these partnerships hit the market, Flash may 
>>> be the first true three-screen development platform for gaming..."
>>>
>>> The really really big question being "do something now like learn Flash 
>>> or wait years for Microsoft to catch up as they have with mobile and 
>>> keep learning Silverlight?" Have other .NET developers chosen Flash?
>>
>> So you are comparing a 3 year old technology against a 14 year old 
>> technology and worried the 3 year old does not have enough adoption to 
>> stick with it. Flash has a wide base and is now installed by default.
>>
>> One of the really cool things about Silverlight is it has a great 
>> programming model. Yes, Flash has Flex, but most people I see who are 
>> serious about it build the middle tier in java or .NET. If Silverlight 
>> can gain proper traction, it already has one programming paradigm for 
>> middle tier and UI. Much better idea.
>>
>> In many ways, Flash, through Flex, is playing catch up. You don't see it 
>> so much as the install base for the non-proggie bits is large.
>>
>>> It just makes me so damn nervous I don't even want to try to keep up 
>>> with Blend or Silverlight development knowing it MIGHT BE the long-term 
>>> choice that finally gets around to being supported when I need to move 
>>> now if I want to be involved with the window of opportunity for HDTV 
>>> developers; IMO the next big thing.
>>
>> I think MS, in general, is making you nervous. And there is a history 
>> that may warrant some of it. Silverlight is controlled by the same basic 
>> group as the web stuff, so it is not going to be killed any time soon. 
>> The question of install base? They had a bit of a black eye in the 
>> 1.0/2.0 time frame with the media bits and lost a major implementer. We 
>> are past that point now, so I am not afraid.
>>
>>> What was it like learning Flash and how well does it integrate with 
>>> ASP.NET C# Web Forms development skills?
>>
>> It doesn't and it does. Flex Framework needs a backend to work at speeds 
>> higher than turtle and .NET makes a good back end. I guess you can go 
>> with any backend it can communicate with and Java would be another sane 
>> choice in some instances. A quick google search should reveal if there 
>> are others. I have done some Flex talking to .NET bits personally.
>>
>> Flash, or more specifically, ActionScript, is a bit like many other 
>> languages with braces. The method of making different methods is slightly 
>> different and there is a better "global" story than .NET (although I am 
>> not convinced that is good. The downside is having to work with the Flex 
>> designer, which does not have the greatest debug tools in the world 
>> (coming from VS, they really suck). There are some Flex to .NET projects 
>> out there.
>>
>> -- 
>> Peace and Grace,
>> Greg
>>
>> Twitter: @gbworld
>> Blog: http://gregorybeamer.spaces.live.com
>>
>> ************************************************
>> |    Think outside the box!                        |
>> ************************************************
>