Viewing and Deleting Styles in Word 2008

A couple of questions from a novice on the built-in MS styles provided:

1. If you are working on a document based on your Normal template, does 
switching to All Styles in fact show all styles defined in Word 2008 
whether built in or one's you have defined?

2. What happens when you Delete a style in a document? A Style in Use? A 
User Defined? A "built-in" style?

Thanks.

-- 
Norm
0
Norm
1/4/2010 2:40:38 AM
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Hi Norm:

If you had wanted to be kind to yourself, you would have avoided asking this
question. :-)

On 4/01/10 1:40 PM, in article
w96dnUl7NOy7yNzWnZ2dnUVZ_hGdnZ2d@speakeasy.net, "Norm"
<NOSPAM@gmail.invalid> wrote:

> 1. If you are working on a document based on your Normal template, does
> switching to All Styles in fact show all styles defined in Word 2008
> whether built in or one's you have defined?

The template makes no difference to what you can see.  The template helps to
determine which styles exist in the document at the moment after creation
and before you type the first character.

Note the difference between "Helps to determine" (i.e. 'has an influence
on') and "Controls" (i.e. 'specifies').

When you create a document (any document) Word pre-populates the style table
with the Default Style Set.  There's about 147 styles in that set.  Some are
visible.  Some are not.  Most are empty.

If Normal template contains definitions for any of those styles, the
definitions from Normal template are copied to the default style names.
Otherwise, they remain empty.

If Normal contains any styles that are not part of the default set, those
style names, and their definitions, are added to the document.

Depending on how your preferences are set and how you work, other styles may
be created and added after document creation.  They will be added to, and
exist in, only the document.

Now let's address the question of whether you can see 'em:

1)  Some styles are set to "Always visible".  Heading 1 to 3 and Normal are
those.  They will always be visible.

2)  Some styles are set to "Hide until used".  They won't become visible
until the first time they are applied to text.  They will then remain
visible even if the text to which hey were applied is deleted.

3)  Some styles are set to "Always hidden".  You will never be able to see
these styles.  But if you try to create one with the same name, Word refuses
and issues an error message.

Word 2008 does not contain the function that enables you to fine-tune which
styles are in each of the visibility lists.

So the answer to your question is "No" :-)

> 2. What happens when you Delete a style in a document? A Style in Use? A
> User Defined? A "built-in" style?

Depends ...  :-)

If Word will allow you to delete the style, the style goes away and any text
formatted with that style is then formatted by Normal Style.

If the style is a "protected" style, Word will ignore your attempt to delete
it, and possibly issue an error message.

I do not know which styles are "protected", but I do know that the Heading 1
to 9 series are amongst them.

Cheers

This email is my business email -- Please do not email me about forum
matters unless you intend to pay!

 -- 

John McGhie, Microsoft MVP (Word, Mac Word), Consultant Technical Writer,
McGhie Information Engineering Pty Ltd
Sydney, Australia. | Ph: +61 (0)4 1209 1410
+61 4 1209 1410, mailto:john@mcghie.name


0
John
1/4/2010 9:23:46 PM
Hi John:


In article <C768A792.405B%john@mcghie.name>,
 John McGhie <john@mcghie.name> wrote:

> Hi Norm:
> 
> If you had wanted to be kind to yourself, you would have avoided asking this
> question. :-)

Hmmm..... unfortunately, for me, this is not the first time my curiosity 
has lead me down this type of path. :-(   But variety is......


> When you create a document (any document) Word pre-populates the style table
> with the Default Style Set.  There's about 147 styles in that set.  Some are
> visible.  Some are not.  Most are empty.

Does the Default Style Set remain fixed?

If you have defined some, deleted some, modified some, does it populate 
with those changes?


> If Normal template contains definitions for any of those styles, the
> definitions from Normal template are copied to the default style names.
> Otherwise, they remain empty.

OK.... got that. So modified are there in that list.


> If Normal contains any styles that are not part of the default set, those
> style names, and their definitions, are added to the document.

OK.... this is very helpful.

> 
> Depending on how your preferences are set and how you work, other styles may
> be created and added after document creation.  They will be added to, and
> exist in, only the document.

That one I don't understand..... Does that mean I can create styles that 
will be only for that document and not added to any template?

<snip>

> Word 2008 does not contain the function that enables you to fine-tune which
> styles are in each of the visibility lists.
> 
> So the answer to your question is "No" :-)

So no where can one see all styles that are available to be used?

If so, is there an easy way to understand, for me to understand ;),  
what MS means by the list of All Styles?

For User Defined Styles? Is it for the document or is it for the user?
 
For Styles in Use?


> 
> > 2. What happens when you Delete a style in a document? A Style in Use? A
> > User Defined? A "built-in" style?
> 
> Depends ...  :-)
> 
> If Word will allow you to delete the style, the style goes away and any text
> formatted with that style is then formatted by Normal Style.

Is it deleted from all style lists and thus never to be used again?


Thanks very much for explaining what MS is doing,

Norm H.

-- 
Norm
0
Norm
1/6/2010 4:09:21 AM
Hi Norm:

On 6/01/10 3:09 PM, in article
S9qdnbiAB8tskdnWnZ2dnUVZ_o6dnZ2d@speakeasy.net, "Norm"
<NOSPAM@gmail.invalid> wrote:

> Hmmm..... unfortunately, for me, this is not the first time my curiosity
> has lead me down this type of path. :-(   But variety is......

And curiosity killed the ...

>> When you create a document (any document) Word pre-populates the style table
>> with the Default Style Set.  There's about 147 styles in that set.  Some are
>> visible.  Some are not.  Most are empty.
> 
> Does the Default Style Set remain fixed?
> 
> If you have defined some, deleted some, modified some, does it populate
> with those changes?

What do you mean by "It"?  A document can have multiple templates.  When you
create a document, you get the style set contained in the template that the
document is based on.

If you do not choose a different template, then the entire style table comes
from the Normal template if you have customised any of the styles in Normal.
If you have not customised any styles in Normal, the Normal style set is all
"empty" and it is not copied to the document.

In which case, or if you click the "New blank document" button, the default
style set comes from the definitions hard-coded into Word itself.

If you do choose a template other than Normal to create your document with,
or if your Normal template contains any customised styles, then the default
style set comes from Normal template, and is determined by the version of
Word that created Normal.

Once the document has been created, its default style set remains unchanged,
unless you change it.

Any styles you change or define are added to the document you are working on
at the time, but they are not added to the template unless you cause that to
happen.

>> If Normal template contains definitions for any of those styles, the
>> definitions from Normal template are copied to the default style names.
>> Otherwise, they remain empty.
> 
> OK.... got that. So modified are there in that list.

ONLY if you remembered to add them to Normal when you modified them.

>> Depending on how your preferences are set and how you work, other styles may
>> be created and added after document creation.  They will be added to, and
>> exist in, only the document.
> 
> That one I don't understand..... Does that mean I can create styles that
> will be only for that document and not added to any template?

Yes.  In fact that's the normal condition.  Styles will not be added to a
template unless you force that, by checking "Add to template".

The "Working" style-set -- the one that Word is USING -- is contained in the
document file.  It has no effect on the template file, unless you force that
to occur.

The styles in the Attached Template and any Global Templates in play (such
as Normal, but there can be others) are accessible from the document, but
they do not come into play unless the document does not already contain a
style of the same name.

If you apply a style, and the style exists in the document, that style is
used; Word does not look in any template.  If, when you apply a style, the
style required is NOT already in the document, Word then looks down its list
of available templates.  It uses whichever copy of the style it wants that
it first finds.  It looks first in the Attached Template if there is one.
Then it looks in the Global Add-ins, if there are any.  Then it looks in
Normal template, and finally, it looks in the Word application code.

So you can have a style named Body Text.  In the Attached Template the font
is blue, in one of the add-ins, it's red.  In another add-in, it's green.
In Normal, it's brown.

When you apply that style, you will get blue text.  If the Attached Template
is not available because it is on the machine of the document's author, you
will get red text.  If the add-ins are not available because you are out of
the office, you will get brown.

When you send the document back to the author, you will get bad language:
because the style definition in the document is now "not blue" and unless he
updates the document styles, it will stay that way.  Remember: styles
applied in a document are ALWAYS stored in that document, and if a stye is
stored in the Document, Word looks no further for it.

>> Word 2008 does not contain the function that enables you to fine-tune which
>> styles are in each of the visibility lists.
>> 
>> So the answer to your question is "No" :-)
> 
> So no where can one see all styles that are available to be used?

By looking in "All styles".  Word 2008 will show you "All Styles".  It WON'T
allow you to customise the list of styles you can see: you either see ALL,
or Available.  Word 2007 has several other views available that you can
customise to show selections of styles.

> If so, is there an easy way to understand, for me to understand ;),
> what MS means by the list of All Styles?

In Word 2008, they mean "All the styles visible to the document", including
all of the styles in all the attached templates, if any.

> For User Defined Styles? Is it for the document or is it for the user?

For the Document.  The style table is LOCAL.  It's in the document.

> For Styles in Use?

For the DOCUMENT.  A style is added to the style table at the instant of
first use.  It is then stored in the document forever.

Again, forget the detail, understand the CONCEPT; then all this will make
sense to you.  The style table is in the document, and there's only one of
them.  But the list of styles you see depens on how many documents are
visible from the document you are working on.

The content of the list depends on which templates are visible from that
document.  If the document has lots of templates, you will see styles from
all of those templates in the list.

>>> 2. What happens when you Delete a style in a document? A Style in Use? A
>>> User Defined? A "built-in" style?
>> 
>> Depends ...  :-)
>> 
>> If Word will allow you to delete the style, the style goes away and any text
>> formatted with that style is then formatted by Normal Style.
> 
> Is it deleted from all style lists and thus never to be used again?

Depends on your "Customisation Context" -- the template you chose if you
were working in a template.  If you are not working in a template, the style
is deleted from the local document.  If you are working in a template, the
style is deleted from the template you selected (and not from the local
document).

For the number of times this becomes an issue, it's really not worth
expending brain-power on it.  If you see the style you want, all is good.
If you don't, go look in the template (or create a new copy).  Simple, and
quick.

It matters to me:  Users are copying content in from various sources, and
stuffing up my document style tables.  But I have 150 contributors, almost
none of whom know this stuff.

I will make a macro that will delete all the foreigners: it will take about
400 milliseconds to do it :-)

Hope this helps

This email is my business email -- Please do not email me about forum
matters unless you intend to pay!

 -- 

John McGhie, Microsoft MVP (Word, Mac Word), Consultant Technical Writer,
McGhie Information Engineering Pty Ltd
Sydney, Australia. | Ph: +61 (0)4 1209 1410
+61 4 1209 1410, mailto:john@mcghie.name


0
John
1/7/2010 8:57:09 AM
Hi John:

Thanks for all the help today. Suspect you might have preferred that I 
found a snowdrift in the Midwest which slowed my return to my Mac. ;)

In article <C76BED15.4122%john@mcghie.name>,
 John McGhie <john@mcghie.name> wrote:

> > 
> > If you have defined some, deleted some, modified some, does it populate
> > with those changes?
> 
> What do you mean by "It"?

When "Word" pre-populates the style table.

> A document can have multiple templates.

Really now? Hmmm.

>  When you
> create a document, you get the style set contained in the template that the
> document is based on.
> 
> If you do not choose a different template, then the entire style table comes
> from the Normal template if you have customised any of the styles in Normal.
> If you have not customised any styles in Normal, the Normal style set is all
> "empty" and it is not copied to the document.

You lost me there with the "empty" set.

> 
> In which case, or if you click the "New blank document" button, the default
> style set comes from the definitions hard-coded into Word itself.
> 
> If you do choose a template other than Normal to create your document with,
> or if your Normal template contains any customised styles, then the default
> style set comes from Normal template, and is determined by the version of
> Word that created Normal.

So in this case, your default style set is your customizations plus the 
Word 2008 (for me) styles. Correct?

> 
> Once the document has been created, its default style set remains unchanged,
> unless you change it.
> 
> Any styles you change or define are added to the document you are working on
> at the time, but they are not added to the template unless you cause that to
> happen.

So they would only be seen in the future if you open that specific 
document?

> 
> >> If Normal template contains definitions for any of those styles, the
> >> definitions from Normal template are copied to the default style names.
> >> Otherwise, they remain empty.

When you say empty, do you mean no definitions but still in the list?

> > 
> > OK.... got that. So modified are there in that list.
> 
> ONLY if you remembered to add them to Normal when you modified them.

Again, if I don't then they stay with that document?

> 
> >> Depending on how your preferences are set and how you work, other styles 
> >> may
> >> be created and added after document creation.  They will be added to, and
> >> exist in, only the document.
> > 
> > That one I don't understand..... Does that mean I can create styles that
> > will be only for that document and not added to any template?
> 
> Yes.  In fact that's the normal condition.  Styles will not be added to a
> template unless you force that, by checking "Add to template".

This answers the above!

<snip>



> Remember: styles
> applied in a document are ALWAYS stored in that document, and if a stye is
> stored in the Document, Word looks no further for it.

That now is clear and your colors example explained away my confusion. 
Thanks.

<snip>

> > If so, is there an easy way to understand, for me to understand ;),
> > what MS means by the list of All Styles?
> 
> In Word 2008, they mean "All the styles visible to the document", including
> all of the styles in all the attached templates, if any.

OK.... OK. The board is hitting the skull. ;)

> 
> > For User Defined Styles? Is it for the document or is it for the user?
> 
> For the Document.  The style table is LOCAL.  It's in the document.

 :-)  and here I thought it picked up styles I defined previously but 
now I see it would only do so if I saved those to the template upon 
which the document is attached on launch.

<snip>

> 
> Again, forget the detail, understand the CONCEPT; then all this will make
> sense to you.  The style table is in the document, and there's only one of
> them.  But the list of styles you see depens on how many documents are
> visible from the document you are working on.
> 
> The content of the list depends on which templates are visible from that
> document.  If the document has lots of templates, you will see styles from
> all of those templates in the list.

Hmmmm, I thought I had it. The list of styles is a list of all the 
styles defined in the style table of that document?

And I don't understand the concept of what documents are "visible" and 
the style list of the subject document.


<snip>
 
> Hope this helps
> 


Immensely!

Thanks,

Norm

-- 
Norm
0
Norm
1/7/2010 7:02:45 PM
Hi Norm:

On 8/01/10 6:02 AM, in article
Mq2dnVLrcrVIstvWnZ2dnUVZ_sOdnZ2d@speakeasy.net, "Norm"
<NOSPAM@gmail.invalid> wrote:

> Thanks for all the help today. Suspect you might have preferred that I
> found a snowdrift in the Midwest which slowed my return to my Mac. ;)

Several ... :-)

>>> If you have defined some, deleted some, modified some, does it populate
>>> with those changes?
>> 
>> What do you mean by "It"?
> 
> When "Word" pre-populates the style table.

The Style table is a required part of a Word document.  Word doesn't
"pre-populate" it, it "creates" it as part of its creation of a document
file.

As explained previously, there is a style table in every Word document and
every template.  If you create from a template, the style table is copied
from the template.  If you copy a document, you copy the style table from
the document you copied.
> 
>> A document can have multiple templates.
> 
> Really now? Hmmm.

Look in Tools>Templates and Add-ins.  There can be an "Attached" template
(or you can attach one).  There can be a large number of "Add-ins".  Normal
template is always there.

> You lost me there with the "empty" set.

Remember our story about trucks?  Two trucks of the same model, both green,
both soft drink trucks.  One truck has 147 boxes containing different kinds
and sizes of drink bottles.  That truck just left the depot, and it could be
said to be "full".  The other truck has completed its deliveries: it still
contains 147 boxes for different kinds of drinks, but there are no drink
bottles in the boxes.  That truck would be said to be "empty".

Same thing with the style table: If it is created by Word from he "empty"
style set in the Word application code, there will be the names of 147
styles, but each one will be empty.

If you copied another document, or created from a custom template, there
will be 147 style names, but some (maybe "most") will contain "properties".

The empty styles can be applied to text.  If they are, they will do nothing
other than inherit the properties of Normal style.  If the full styles are
applied, the formatting properties they contain will change the formatting
of the text.

>> If you do choose a template other than Normal to create your document with,
>> or if your Normal template contains any customised styles, then the default
>> style set comes from Normal template, and is determined by the version of
>> Word that created Normal.
> 
> So in this case, your default style set is your customizations plus the
> Word 2008 (for me) styles. Correct?

Yes.  In Word 2008, you will get some styles in the default set (such as
List Paragraph style) that do not exist in earlier versions of Word.  If you
open a document created that way in Word vX, the List Paragraph style will
be there.  But if you create a document in Word vX and open it in Word 2008,
the List Paragraph style will NOT be there unless you click the Bullets
button: when you do, Word 2008 will create the List Paragraph style if it
needs it.  Word vX will simply add bullets to the existing text in the
document.

>> Any styles you change or define are added to the document you are working on
>> at the time, but they are not added to the template unless you cause that to
>> happen.
> 
> So they would only be seen in the future if you open that specific
> document?

Correct.  They won't appear anywhere else unless you send them there.

>>>> If Normal template contains definitions for any of those styles, the
>>>> definitions from Normal template are copied to the default style names.
>>>> Otherwise, they remain empty.
> 
> When you say empty, do you mean no definitions but still in the list?

See above under "trucks" :-)


>> ONLY if you remembered to add them to Normal when you modified them.
> 
> Again, if I don't then they stay with that document?

Yes.  The act of creating or customising a style adds it to the document.
The style must "be" somewhere.  It must be entered into the style table
before it can be applied to the text.  Because the act of "applying it to
the text" simply adds the name of the style to the next.  It's just a name:
no "formatting" gets transferred.  All the "formatting" remains in the style
table: the text simply contains the "name" of the row in the table that
contains that style.  So the style must be in the style table in the local
document before it can be applied to any text.

>> For the Document.  The style table is LOCAL.  It's in the document.
> 
>  :-)  and here I thought it picked up styles I defined previously but
> now I see it would only do so if I saved those to the template upon
> which the document is attached on launch.

To which the document is "attached".  You can attach a template to a
document manually after document creation.

> Hmmmm, I thought I had it. The list of styles is a list of all the
> styles defined in the style table of that document?

Yes.
> 
> And I don't understand the concept of what documents are "visible" and
> the style list of the subject document.

If you are looking in Organiser, you can see styles in any other template
you care to select.  If any of those templates are attached to the document,
then you can "call" a style from a toolbar.  If you do, and the style is not
already in the document style table, Word will take a copy of that style
from the first template it finds it in.

Told you you would be sorry you asked :-)

Cheers

This email is my business email -- Please do not email me about forum
matters unless you intend to pay!

 -- 

John McGhie, Microsoft MVP (Word, Mac Word), Consultant Technical Writer,
McGhie Information Engineering Pty Ltd
Sydney, Australia. | Ph: +61 (0)4 1209 1410
+61 4 1209 1410, mailto:john@mcghie.name


0
John
1/8/2010 7:32:18 AM
Hi John:


In article <C76D2AB2.41C1%john@mcghie.name>,
 John McGhie <john@mcghie.name> wrote:

> Several ... :-)

My wife concurs. ;)

<snip>

> > Really now? Hmmm.
> 
> Look in Tools>Templates and Add-ins.  There can be an "Attached" template
> (or you can attach one).  There can be a large number of "Add-ins".  Normal
> template is always there.

It would seem then that there could be conflicting style definitions.

> Same thing with the style table: If it is created by Word from he "empty"
> style set in the Word application code, there will be the names of 147
> styles, but each one will be empty.

And you said it is then not copied to the document because the style(s) 
is "empty.'  But when I open a new document it has many styles and I 
assume they came from the application code but they are in my All Styles 
list and it seems that many aren't empty.
 
Confused. :-(

> 
> If you copied another document, or created from a custom template, there
> will be 147 style names, but some (maybe "most") will contain "properties".

You mean someone defined most of the 147 styles?


snip

> be there.  But if you create a document in Word vX and open it in Word 2008,
> the List Paragraph style will NOT be there unless you click the Bullets
> button: when you do, Word 2008 will create the List Paragraph style if it
> needs it.  Word vX will simply add bullets to the existing text in the
> document.

But to go back to what you said earlier aren't some of these style that 
come from Normal empty and therefore are not copied?


snip

> 
> To which the document is "attached".  You can attach a template to a
> document manually after document creation.
> 
> > Hmmmm, I thought I had it. The list of styles is a list of all the
> > styles defined in the style table of that document?
> 
> Yes.

Still having a problem, as you can tell, with the "empty" styles and 
whether they do or don't appear in the All Style list of a document or 
template. 


> Told you you would be sorry you asked :-)

You are 100% correct!

But I'm determined to get this but....... not at the cost of any more of 
your time on this subject. ;) 

Thanks much,

Norm

-- 
Norm
0
Norm
1/8/2010 4:05:45 PM
Hi Norm:

On 9/01/10 3:05 AM, in article
9_idnTp_169HytrWnZ2dnUVZ_t-dnZ2d@speakeasy.net, "Norm"
<NOSPAM@gmail.invalid> wrote:

> It would seem then that there could be conflicting style definitions.

They cannot "conflict" because Word will use the first instance of each
style that it finds.  It searches a defined hierarchy in a specific
sequence, and takes the first style it finds of each name.

So there may be six different definitions for Body Text, but only one will
be copied to the document.  And until it has been copied to the document, it
cannot be used to format text.

Once it has been copied into the document style table, if a different
version of the same style is copied in, it will over-write the first.

No conflict is possible.

> And you said it is then not copied to the document because the style(s)
> is "empty.'  But when I open a new document it has many styles and I
> assume they came from the application code but they are in my All Styles
> list and it seems that many aren't empty.
>  
> Confused. :-(

It does seem like that, doesn't it :-)  But all is not what it seems.  They
are, indeed, empty.  The properties are coming from a very long inheritance
chain.  And given style is likely to be empty, but it is inheriting its
settings from elsewhere.

>> If you copied another document, or created from a custom template, there
>> will be 147 style names, but some (maybe "most") will contain "properties".
> 
> You mean someone defined most of the 147 styles?

I do.

> But to go back to what you said earlier aren't some of these style that
> come from Normal empty and therefore are not copied?

That's right.  The styles are not copied if they are empty.

The document will always contain the 147 styles.  These names are all part
of the default style set.  And they're empty.

Word next looks in Normal, and finds that all 147 are empty: nothing to
copy, so it copies nothing.

You had 147 empty styles: nothing got copied, so you now have 147 styles
that remain empty.  Going back to those mathematics classes we both ignored,
0 times 0 is still 0 :-)

> Still having a problem, as you can tell, with the "empty" styles and
> whether they do or don't appear in the All Style list of a document or
> template.

Go back to our empty green soft-drink truck.  There are 147 boxes on the
truck.  The boxes are perfectly visible, but they're empty.  If you looked
inside the boxes, then you would see "nothing" because the boxes contain no
drinks.  But the empty boxes are quite visible from outside the truck!

Empty styles are visible.  If you looked inside, you would see nothing:
because they contain no properties.  But the styles themselves are perfectly
visible.  "Empty" means just that: 'empty', it does not "absent".

Later, when you get into VBA programming, this concept will become
incredibly important to you.  Computing has many instances of "Tri-state"
variables: they can be True, False, or Null.  True and False are both
"contents", they are valid values and we know what they are.

But in a tristate variable, the value 0 does not mean it is empty.  It is
storing a value, and we know what it is: it is the quantity 0.

The value Null means its empty: its value is either not there or not known
or not defined (same thing, usually).  In fact, technically, null is not a
value, but let's not go there...

Many a programmer (me, for example...) has come ludicrously unstuck by
treating a null value as if it were a 0.  Consider a radar station at NORAD
HQ:  The General asks "Are there any enemy bombers heading our way,
soldier?"  There are three possible answers.  You do not get to be a General
by assuming "I don't know, sir" means "No"  :-)

Hope this helps

 --

The email below is my business email -- Please do not email me about forum
matters unless I ask you to; or unless you intend to pay!

John McGhie, Microsoft MVP (Word, Mac Word), Consultant Technical Writer,
McGhie Information Engineering Pty Ltd
Sydney, Australia. | Ph: +61 (0)4 1209 1410
+61 4 1209 1410, mailto:john@mcghie.name


0
John
1/9/2010 1:20:54 PM
Hi John:


In article <C76ECDE6.6B27%john@mcghie.name>,
 John McGhie <john@mcghie.name> wrote:

<snip>

> > It would seem then that there could be conflicting style definitions.
> 
> They cannot "conflict" because Word will use the first instance of each
> style that it finds.  It searches a defined hierarchy in a specific
> sequence, and takes the first style it finds of each name.

Then they could be conflicting in ones mind (mine anyway) as to which 
would be used. ;)

<snip>

> > And you said it is then not copied to the document because the style(s)
> > is "empty.'  But when I open a new document it has many styles and I
> > assume they came from the application code but they are in my All Styles
> > list and it seems that many aren't empty.
> >  
> > Confused. :-(
> 
> It does seem like that, doesn't it :-)  But all is not what it seems.  They
> are, indeed, empty.  The properties are coming from a very long inheritance
> chain.  And given style is likely to be empty, but it is inheriting its
> settings from elsewhere.

So it is empty even though it has a definition.

For example, the List Number 1 in my Word 2008 has the following 
definition: Whoops .... thought I could take a partial screen shot and 
paste. :-(    You probably know the definition anyway.


> > But to go back to what you said earlier aren't some of these style that
> > come from Normal empty and therefore are not copied?
> 
> That's right.  The styles are not copied if they are empty.
> 
> The document will always contain the 147 styles.  These names are all part
> of the default style set.  And they're empty.

So empty styles are still in the All Styles list.

> 
> Word next looks in Normal, and finds that all 147 are empty: nothing to
> copy, so it copies nothing.
> 
> You had 147 empty styles: nothing got copied, so you now have 147 styles
> that remain empty.  Going back to those mathematics classes we both ignored,
> 0 times 0 is still 0 :-)

But you said the document will always have the 147 styles.


> Empty styles are visible.  If you looked inside, you would see nothing:
> because they contain no properties.  But the styles themselves are perfectly
> visible.  "Empty" means just that: 'empty', it does not "absent".

So empty styles aren't absent and they are in the All Styles list.

Ackkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk!  :-(

snip

> 
> Hope this helps

Hope I haven't tried your sanity with these style-challenged questions.

I have tried mine if I have any. ;)

Thanks much,

Norm

-- 
Norm
0
Norm
1/9/2010 6:54:00 PM
Hi Norm:

On 10/01/10 5:54 AM, in article
5PadnXlwwJBUTdXWnZ2dnUVZ_hCdnZ2d@speakeasy.net, "Norm"
<NOSPAM@gmail.invalid> wrote:

> Then they could be conflicting in ones mind (mine anyway) as to which
> would be used. ;)

And in my mind, too :-)  However, once you know the hierarchy, you can say
with certainty which one it will be:

1)  Local Document
2)  Attached Template (can be only one of those)
3)  Global Add-ins (in alphabetic order by name of add-in)
4)  Normal Template
5)  Word Application

It's a rule of "closest context": from the position of the cursor, you look
outwards along the hierarchy until you find what you are looking for.  If a
level doesn't exist, it's skipped (for example, if there is no Attached
Template, Word next looks for global add-ins, and if there are none of those
either, it looks in Normal template).

> So it is empty even though it has a definition.

Ummm...  How's your Quantum Mechanics?  The reason they have so far not
found the Up, Down, and Strange Quarks is said to be because the act of
"looking" changes them into something else; so if you don't look, they're
there, and as soon as you do look, they're not there.

Albert Einstein was the last person who understood this, and he said he
wasn't sure ... :-)

Styles exhibit a similar effect.  They can be "empty".  If they are empty,
and you look to see what's in them, they instantly inherit a bunch of
properties (often from Normal style, which inherits them from the
Application).  So when you look, they are no longer empty :-)

If you were to look at the row in the style table, all the columns except
the name would be blank.  Word interprets "blank" as "See Above".  So as
soon as you look in the style definition, you are shown the content from the
rows above, for each column.  So the style appears not to be empty, even
though it is.

It does not become "full" until you type something.  As soon as you type "12
pt" for the font size, the style is no longer blank: the appropriate column
in the row in the style table now reads "12".

> I have tried mine if I have any. ;)

Sanity is not a prerequisite for using Word.  Unkind persons have suggested
that it is actually a rare commodity amongst those who use Word
professionally :-)

Cheers

 --

The email below is my business email -- Please do not email me about forum
matters unless I ask you to; or unless you intend to pay!

John McGhie, Microsoft MVP (Word, Mac Word), Consultant Technical Writer,
McGhie Information Engineering Pty Ltd
Sydney, Australia. | Ph: +61 (0)4 1209 1410
+61 4 1209 1410, mailto:john@mcghie.name


0
John
1/9/2010 11:18:40 PM
In article <C76F5A00.6B78%john@mcghie.name>,
 John McGhie <john@mcghie.name> wrote:

> > So it is empty even though it has a definition.
> 
> Ummm...  How's your Quantum Mechanics?  The reason they have so far not
> found the Up, Down, and Strange Quarks is said to be because the act of
> "looking" changes them into something else; so if you don't look, they're
> there, and as soon as you do look, they're not there.
> 
> Albert Einstein was the last person who understood this, and he said he
> wasn't sure ... :-)

And even Einstein wouldn't be sure how to find some of the functions in 
MS Word.

Since my sanity that was is not and what wasn't may be, I'll understand 
Word if find that sanity. ;)

Thanks.

-- 
Norm
0
Norm
1/10/2010 2:01:03 AM
Reply:

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