Access not enforcing referential integrity!!!

Howdy.

Using Acc 2007. Have two tables related one-to-many. Ref. integrity being 
enforced, without any cascading updates or deletes. Data in both tables.

Problem: I can add new records to the many-side table, without any value for 
the foreign key, and the new record is created without error or prompt from 
Access. I can do this both in the child table directly, and using a 
form/subform.

On the other hand, if I create a new child record and enter a FK value that 
doesn't exist in the parent table, I get a message saying that a related 
record in the parent table is required, and Access prohibits creation of 
orphan.

What the heck is going on?
0
Utf
4/15/2010 3:26:01 AM
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On Wed, 14 Apr 2010 20:26:01 -0700, Danny
<Danny@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote:

I don't quite follow you: the "many-side table" and the "child table"
are the same thing.

-Tom.
Microsoft Access MVP


>Howdy.
>
>Using Acc 2007. Have two tables related one-to-many. Ref. integrity being 
>enforced, without any cascading updates or deletes. Data in both tables.
>
>Problem: I can add new records to the many-side table, without any value for 
>the foreign key, and the new record is created without error or prompt from 
>Access. I can do this both in the child table directly, and using a 
>form/subform.
>
>On the other hand, if I create a new child record and enter a FK value that 
>doesn't exist in the parent table, I get a message saying that a related 
>record in the parent table is required, and Access prohibits creation of 
>orphan.
>
>What the heck is going on?
0
Tom
4/15/2010 3:48:09 AM
Referential integrity is checked only for Non-Null values; so this is the 
expected behavior here.  If you don't want to have any Null value in your 
foreign key, set it up as Not-Null in order to forbid null value in the 
first place.

-- 
Sylvain Lafontaine, ing.
MVP - Windows Live Platform
Blog/web site: http://coding-paparazzi.sylvainlafontaine.com
Independent consultant and remote programming for Access and SQL-Server 
(French)


"Danny" <Danny@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message 
news:1BA904E7-70E4-4F61-AE54-247CB5268418@microsoft.com...
> Howdy.
>
> Using Acc 2007. Have two tables related one-to-many. Ref. integrity being
> enforced, without any cascading updates or deletes. Data in both tables.
>
> Problem: I can add new records to the many-side table, without any value 
> for
> the foreign key, and the new record is created without error or prompt 
> from
> Access. I can do this both in the child table directly, and using a
> form/subform.
>
> On the other hand, if I create a new child record and enter a FK value 
> that
> doesn't exist in the parent table, I get a message saying that a related
> record in the parent table is required, and Access prohibits creation of
> orphan.
>
> What the heck is going on? 


0
Sylvain
4/15/2010 5:00:38 AM
I did not know this - that null foreign key values are allowed. Wow. I've 
worked with relational databases for over ten years, too. Hmm...

BUT: There is no way to allow or prohibit null values in an Access table. 
For a text field, zero length strings can be allowed or prohibited, but not 
null values. Another way to deal with this is to set Required to Yes for 
these fields. But I have to do something, because I don't want users being 
able to inadvertently enter data into a subform where the main form has no 
data.

Thanks for the education in RI and null values :)

"Sylvain Lafontaine" wrote:

> Referential integrity is checked only for Non-Null values; so this is the 
> expected behavior here.  If you don't want to have any Null value in your 
> foreign key, set it up as Not-Null in order to forbid null value in the 
> first place.
> 
> -- 
> Sylvain Lafontaine, ing.
> MVP - Windows Live Platform
> Blog/web site: http://coding-paparazzi.sylvainlafontaine.com
> Independent consultant and remote programming for Access and SQL-Server 
> (French)
> 
> 
> "Danny" <Danny@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message 
> news:1BA904E7-70E4-4F61-AE54-247CB5268418@microsoft.com...
> > Howdy.
> >
> > Using Acc 2007. Have two tables related one-to-many. Ref. integrity being
> > enforced, without any cascading updates or deletes. Data in both tables.
> >
> > Problem: I can add new records to the many-side table, without any value 
> > for
> > the foreign key, and the new record is created without error or prompt 
> > from
> > Access. I can do this both in the child table directly, and using a
> > form/subform.
> >
> > On the other hand, if I create a new child record and enter a FK value 
> > that
> > doesn't exist in the parent table, I get a message saying that a related
> > record in the parent table is required, and Access prohibits creation of
> > orphan.
> >
> > What the heck is going on? 
> 
> 
> .
> 
0
Utf
4/15/2010 7:59:02 AM
You can give your foreign key a Default Value (ie. 0 (zero) for a numeric) 
so that it will not be Null when a new record is created.

-- 
--Roger Carlson
  MS Access MVP
  Access Database Samples: www.rogersaccesslibrary.com
  Want answers to your Access questions in your Email?
  Free subscription:
  http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/scripts/wa.exe?SUBED1=ACCESS-L


"Danny" <Danny@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message 
news:1FABE623-10E5-44D9-95DD-E83543A0946C@microsoft.com...
>I did not know this - that null foreign key values are allowed. Wow. I've
> worked with relational databases for over ten years, too. Hmm...
>
> BUT: There is no way to allow or prohibit null values in an Access table.
> For a text field, zero length strings can be allowed or prohibited, but 
> not
> null values. Another way to deal with this is to set Required to Yes for
> these fields. But I have to do something, because I don't want users being
> able to inadvertently enter data into a subform where the main form has no
> data.
>
> Thanks for the education in RI and null values :)
>
> "Sylvain Lafontaine" wrote:
>
>> Referential integrity is checked only for Non-Null values; so this is the
>> expected behavior here.  If you don't want to have any Null value in your
>> foreign key, set it up as Not-Null in order to forbid null value in the
>> first place.
>>
>> -- 
>> Sylvain Lafontaine, ing.
>> MVP - Windows Live Platform
>> Blog/web site: http://coding-paparazzi.sylvainlafontaine.com
>> Independent consultant and remote programming for Access and SQL-Server
>> (French)
>>
>>
>> "Danny" <Danny@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
>> news:1BA904E7-70E4-4F61-AE54-247CB5268418@microsoft.com...
>> > Howdy.
>> >
>> > Using Acc 2007. Have two tables related one-to-many. Ref. integrity 
>> > being
>> > enforced, without any cascading updates or deletes. Data in both 
>> > tables.
>> >
>> > Problem: I can add new records to the many-side table, without any 
>> > value
>> > for
>> > the foreign key, and the new record is created without error or prompt
>> > from
>> > Access. I can do this both in the child table directly, and using a
>> > form/subform.
>> >
>> > On the other hand, if I create a new child record and enter a FK value
>> > that
>> > doesn't exist in the parent table, I get a message saying that a 
>> > related
>> > record in the parent table is required, and Access prohibits creation 
>> > of
>> > orphan.
>> >
>> > What the heck is going on?
>>
>>
>> .
>> 


0
Roger
4/15/2010 2:39:01 PM
On Thu, 15 Apr 2010 00:59:02 -0700, Danny <Danny@discussions.microsoft.com>
wrote:

>There is no way to allow or prohibit null values in an Access table. 

Actually there is: set the field's Required property to Yes in table design
view.

-- 

             John W. Vinson [MVP]
0
John
4/15/2010 4:38:54 PM
!!! The default value of 0 is not working on subforms. I've set the default 
value in both the table and the subform, but it doesn't seem to get set when 
I attempt to enter data into the subform when the parent form record is 
empty. Here is what happens:

- Main form record is empty
- Subform record is empty, and default value of 0 displays in the FK field
- I start typing data into the subform record, while main form record is 
still empty
- FK field value changes from 0 to NULL

If I make the FK field Required, in addition to setting the default value to 
0, then here's what happens:

- Main form record is empty
- Subform record is empty, and default value of 0 DOESN'T display in the FK 
field
- I start typing data into the subform record, and immediately a prompt 
tells me that I must enter a value in the FK field
- I click through the prompt, and finish entering data in the subform record 
(main form record still empty)
- When I attempt to move off of the new subform record, I get a prompt 
telling me that I can't change or add record because a related record is 
required in the parent table

So this will do - it will prevent creation of orphaned records. But it seems 
an awful lot of redundant field property values...



"Roger Carlson" wrote:

> You can give your foreign key a Default Value (ie. 0 (zero) for a numeric) 
> so that it will not be Null when a new record is created.
> 
> -- 
> --Roger Carlson
>   MS Access MVP
>   Access Database Samples: www.rogersaccesslibrary.com
>   Want answers to your Access questions in your Email?
>   Free subscription:
>   http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/scripts/wa.exe?SUBED1=ACCESS-L
> 
> 
> "Danny" <Danny@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message 
> news:1FABE623-10E5-44D9-95DD-E83543A0946C@microsoft.com...
> >I did not know this - that null foreign key values are allowed. Wow. I've
> > worked with relational databases for over ten years, too. Hmm...
> >
> > BUT: There is no way to allow or prohibit null values in an Access table.
> > For a text field, zero length strings can be allowed or prohibited, but 
> > not
> > null values. Another way to deal with this is to set Required to Yes for
> > these fields. But I have to do something, because I don't want users being
> > able to inadvertently enter data into a subform where the main form has no
> > data.
> >
> > Thanks for the education in RI and null values :)
> >
> > "Sylvain Lafontaine" wrote:
> >
> >> Referential integrity is checked only for Non-Null values; so this is the
> >> expected behavior here.  If you don't want to have any Null value in your
> >> foreign key, set it up as Not-Null in order to forbid null value in the
> >> first place.
> >>
> >> -- 
> >> Sylvain Lafontaine, ing.
> >> MVP - Windows Live Platform
> >> Blog/web site: http://coding-paparazzi.sylvainlafontaine.com
> >> Independent consultant and remote programming for Access and SQL-Server
> >> (French)
> >>
> >>
> >> "Danny" <Danny@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
> >> news:1BA904E7-70E4-4F61-AE54-247CB5268418@microsoft.com...
> >> > Howdy.
> >> >
> >> > Using Acc 2007. Have two tables related one-to-many. Ref. integrity 
> >> > being
> >> > enforced, without any cascading updates or deletes. Data in both 
> >> > tables.
> >> >
> >> > Problem: I can add new records to the many-side table, without any 
> >> > value
> >> > for
> >> > the foreign key, and the new record is created without error or prompt
> >> > from
> >> > Access. I can do this both in the child table directly, and using a
> >> > form/subform.
> >> >
> >> > On the other hand, if I create a new child record and enter a FK value
> >> > that
> >> > doesn't exist in the parent table, I get a message saying that a 
> >> > related
> >> > record in the parent table is required, and Access prohibits creation 
> >> > of
> >> > orphan.
> >> >
> >> > What the heck is going on?
> >>
> >>
> >> .
> >> 
> 
> 
> .
> 
0
Utf
4/15/2010 5:38:06 PM
On Thu, 15 Apr 2010 10:38:06 -0700, Danny <Danny@discussions.microsoft.com>
wrote:

>!!! The default value of 0 is not working on subforms. I've set the default 
>value in both the table and the subform, but it doesn't seem to get set when 
>I attempt to enter data into the subform when the parent form record is 
>empty. Here is what happens:
>
>- Main form record is empty
>- Subform record is empty, and default value of 0 displays in the FK field
>- I start typing data into the subform record, while main form record is 
>still empty
>- FK field value changes from 0 to NULL

Erm? What's the Master and Child Link Field? The Master should be the PK field
on the parent form, the Child should be the FK. I'd say that the FK field
should be required but that you should *not* use a zero default; that's more a
pain in the neck than any sort of benefit (since it will always be wrong and
need to be edited).

I suspect your master/child link isn't set up, or isn't working correctly.
-- 

             John W. Vinson [MVP]
0
John
4/15/2010 10:34:24 PM
Danny, 

You mentioned entering on a subform in your last post.  

Assuming that the subform is actually being used as a subform, the PK value 
of the parent record  is automaticaly loaded into the FK of the child record 
when the user creates a new record in the the subform.   

This is also the common way that this issue gets taken care of. 

Fred

0
Utf
4/16/2010 12:14:01 PM
Assuming the Link Child and Link Master properties of the subform control are
properly set, as John pointed out.


Fred wrote:
>Danny, 
>
>You mentioned entering on a subform in your last post.  
>
>Assuming that the subform is actually being used as a subform, the PK value 
>of the parent record  is automaticaly loaded into the FK of the child record 
>when the user creates a new record in the the subform.   
>
>This is also the common way that this issue gets taken care of. 
>
>Fred

-- 
Message posted via AccessMonster.com
http://www.accessmonster.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/access-tablesdbdesign/201004/1

0
BruceM
4/16/2010 2:33:34 PM
John W. Vinson <jvinson@STOP_SPAM.WysardOfInfo.com> wrote in
news:o05fs5h1f7k74gvhiflasee0dj4sko1skp@4ax.com: 

> I'd say that the FK field
> should be required but that you should *not* use a zero default;
> that's more a pain in the neck than any sort of benefit (since it
> will always be wrong and need to be edited).

....and it won't work unless you create a record in the parent table
with 0 as the PK value. 

-- 
David W. Fenton                  http://www.dfenton.com/ 
usenet at dfenton dot com    http://www.dfenton.com/DFA/
0
David
4/16/2010 6:01:13 PM
That's pretty much the point.  If there's no record in the parent table with 
a 0 in the primary key, then no record with a 0 in the foreign key can be 
saved.
-- 
--Roger Carlson
   MS Access MVP
   www.rogersaccesslibrary.com
   http://rogersaccessblog.blogspot.com/


"David W. Fenton" <XXXusenet@dfenton.com.invalid> wrote in message 
news:Xns9D5C8E50E86FEf99a49ed1d0c49c5bbb2@74.209.136.97...
> John W. Vinson <jvinson@STOP_SPAM.WysardOfInfo.com> wrote in
> news:o05fs5h1f7k74gvhiflasee0dj4sko1skp@4ax.com:
>
>> I'd say that the FK field
>> should be required but that you should *not* use a zero default;
>> that's more a pain in the neck than any sort of benefit (since it
>> will always be wrong and need to be edited).
>
> ...and it won't work unless you create a record in the parent table
> with 0 as the PK value.
>
> -- 
> David W. Fenton                  http://www.dfenton.com/
> usenet at dfenton dot com    http://www.dfenton.com/DFA/ 


0
Roger
4/16/2010 6:52:27 PM
I don't see the difference, really.  A default value will be wrong and have 
to be edited.  A Null, required field will be "wrong" (that is, not allowed) 
and have to be filled.  Either way, the record can't be saved.

Still, setting the form/subform with the parent/child properties will 
undoubtedly solve the problem.

-- 
--Roger Carlson
   MS Access MVP
   www.rogersaccesslibrary.com
   http://rogersaccessblog.blogspot.com/


"John W. Vinson" <jvinson@STOP_SPAM.WysardOfInfo.com> wrote in message 
news:o05fs5h1f7k74gvhiflasee0dj4sko1skp@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 15 Apr 2010 10:38:06 -0700, Danny 
> <Danny@discussions.microsoft.com>
> wrote:
I'd say that the FK field
> should be required but that you should *not* use a zero default; that's 
> more a
> pain in the neck than any sort of benefit (since it will always be wrong 
> and
> need to be edited).

>             John W. Vinson [MVP] 


0
Roger
4/16/2010 6:57:57 PM
Reply:

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I have been using Access 2003 and 2007 to read and do simple data (not design) repairs to old Jet databases that underlie a legacy proprietary data collection program my company uses. My latest challenge is to automate the extraction of certain data from the tables and put it in an Excel spreadsheet. Each time the extraction is done it would involve finding a certain table, searching for a record that meets the new criteria in a certain field, then moving over to another certain field and extracting the text, number, or date therein. I would really appreciate if anyone could point out ...

Access 2007
How do you ungroup controls on an Access 2007 form? I can't figure it out. Thanks, Mike In form design view, select the controls that you want to ungroup, click on the "Arrange" tab above, then click on "Remove" (fourth button from the left in the Arrange toolbar) HTH -- _________ Sean Bailey "Mike" wrote: > How do you ungroup controls on an Access 2007 form? I can't figure it out. > > Thanks, > Mike Wow that was right under my nose and I was missing it. Thanks! "Beetle" wrote: > In form design view, select the con...

Command Buttons Don't Work in Access 2007
Hello: I'm sure there's a quick and easy answer to this question. After doing all of my previous work in Access 2003, I just installed Access 2007. Much to my surprise, the first time I opened a custom form, none of the command buttons on my form worked. I couldn't open a report, save a record, run a query, etc. Can someone please explain why. In addition, can you also take a couple of moments to highlight any significant changes I should be aware of and kind of point me in the right direction to make the transition to 2007 go a little smoother. Thanks, Robert "Rober...